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@AThousandYoung saidYou are disingenuous here. I made multiple points in that post. One of which was that using AI impairs the development of critical thinking skills.
Critical thinking will instantly lead to the realization that the article you link to does not talk about the youth in any way.
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@AThousandYoung saidI don't think farming/industrialization is a good analogy to this. In this specific instance, the entire technology advance is DESIGNED to replace human thinking. And less human thinking causes a less intelligent human.
I teach them and I see no evidence of lack of intelligence. Yes I'm sure lots of older people have written very wordy papers insulting the youth but that's been going on since Ancient Greece.
Can you imagine the loss of intelligence perceived by farmers when their children moved to the city during industrialization?
[youtube Cashmere Cow commercial]DgOiM-oa2gA[/youtube]
There are things that educators can do to combat the offshoring of cognitive load to computers. But this first requires an acknowledgement that kids are thinking less than previous generations, and that less thinking makes people less smart. The Reverse Flynn Effect is real, and whether or not you think this is a direct result of AI's ability to replace the effort of human thinking or not, it is still real. Cognitive capacity is declining. We can choose to ignore it and allow the machines to replace our brains, or come up with creative solutions.
@wildgrass saidIs the Reverse Flynn Effect based on the same IQ tests that say Blacks are less intelligent?
I don't think farming/industrialization is a good analogy to this. In this specific instance, the entire technology advance is DESIGNED to replace human thinking. And less human thinking causes a less intelligent human.
There are things that educators can do to combat the offshoring of cognitive load to computers. But this first requires an acknowledgement that kids are ...[text shortened]... hoose to ignore it and allow the machines to replace our brains, or come up with creative solutions.
Maybe there's a problem with the test.
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@AThousandYoung saidMaybe there is a problem with trying to quantify intelligence.
Is the Reverse Flynn Effect based on the same IQ tests that say Blacks are less intelligent?
Maybe there's a problem with the test.
Einstein was perhaps the most renowned genius of the previous century, but he was a mediocre mathematician. What he excelled at was imagination. The breakthrough for his Theory of Relativity was imagining what the universe would look like to someone traveling at the speed of light (it would look frozen in time). Imagination is not quantifiable.
At least one generation of children has now grown up, watching series streamed from the Internet, rather than reading books. Multiple studies involving real time scans on living persons have demonstrated that watching a series on television or the Internet is primarily a perceptual activity, whereas reading a book is primarily a thinking activity. Different areas of the brain are involved in these two activities. That is to say, at least one generation of children has grown up who have passively digested someone else’s imagery, rather than, as readers do, invented images for themselves.
Personally, I believe that imagination is a bit like a muscle, in that failure to use it leads to atrophy of the ability.
@moonbus saidEinstein was not a mediocre mathematician!
Maybe there is a problem with trying to quantify intelligence.
Einstein was perhaps the most renowned genius of the previous century, but he was a mediocre mathematician. What he excelled at was imagination. The breakthrough for his Theory of Relativity was imagining what the universe would look like to someone traveling at the speed of light (it would look frozen in time) ...[text shortened]... that imagination is a bit like a muscle, in that failure to use it leads to atrophy of the ability.
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@AThousandYoung saidSure, maybe true. I'd like to see some data.
Is the Reverse Flynn Effect based on the same IQ tests that say Blacks are less intelligent?
Maybe there's a problem with the test.
I've posted in other threads that there are multiple quantitative metrics of intelligence and cognition that are all negatively impacted by screen-based education and generative AI use. The research is pretty clear. Maybe we're all resigned now to use our brains less, but I think there's a risk that we should at least be attempting to address at the level of education that we're not exercising our brains enough. The result might well be a culture of idiots who vote for reality TV stars and Instagram influencers, who resign control of government to the tech billionaires, who rot away in their pajamas and 2x4 inch handheld screens with an endless scroll of TikTok videos all created by computers.
These aren't doomsday scenarios, this is actually happening. 15 HOURS per day on screens is the average. Certainly it doesn't help to just ignore it or compare it to relatively benign things like the invention of the calculator.
@wildgrass saidI’m le people elected a reality tv star ten years ago.
Sure, maybe true. I'd like to see some data.
I've posted in other threads that there are multiple quantitative metrics of intelligence and cognition that are all negatively impacted by screen-based education and generative AI use. The research is pretty clear. Maybe we're all resigned now to use our brains less, but I think there's a risk that we should at least be attem ...[text shortened]... lp to just ignore it or compare it to relatively benign things like the invention of the calculator.
@AThousandYoung saidHe had help--
Einstein was not a mediocre mathematician!
https://www.investors.com/news/management/leaders-and-success/emmy-noether-meet-the-unsung-whiz-who-helped-einstein-with-his-math/
@wildgrass saidSure, Chicken Little. That's why we have the highest GDP per capita of any country larger than a wheat thin (sorry, Norway, you need people to be considered a sizeable country).
Do you ever go outside in a busy, crowded public place and just look around at "our team"? Yikes. Its a combination of full throated morbidly obese, pompous punks with phone addictions, or you're in your pajamas at 2 in the afternoon. What the heck happened?
Your people? 74% are overweight and 43% are obese. 40% are carrying credit card debt. A Netflix subscription and a ...[text shortened]... ther America. Stop being so dumb.
Anyone want to disagree with this? America is in steep decline.
That's also why the US leads the world in innovation, technology and entertainment.
Sure, our government is fiscally irresponsible and Americans are too fat and use social media too much. But "steep decline" is overstating the case and has no objective data to back up that assertion.
Crumbling infrastructure? Yeah. I've heard that 8 zillion times going back to 1987. I'm sure there are a few bridges here and there that need work, but the infrastructure is fine, at least around here. Unless you're a big intercity train person (and the US is too big for intercity trains to really do much, at least outside of the Megalopolis), I don't know what we're really lacking in infrastructure. Yeah, the Chinese have nicer train stations and and we don't have impressive waterfalls in our airports like in Singapore, but I don't see the problem.
I've been in Europe a few times in the past year (Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Athens, London, and Krakow, specifically), and aside from the cities being geographically smaller and this more walkable, I really don't see any big advantages that we're missing out on. The London and Frankfurt metros are barely nicer than New York's, and not as nice as Washington's. And even "bad" US airports (like Newark) seem to have better functionality than European airports (fewer bus gates and more plug-in work desks at the gates). American hotel rooms are bigger, and incredibly, many European hotel rooms don't even have air conditioning.
Sure, those are silly little examples, but I don't see these European cities as being any more advanced than American cities (again, save for inter-city train travel and walkability).
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@sh76 saidThe sky isn't falling but innovation, quality of life, birth rates, optimism? All of these metrics are declining. Declining relative to ourselves, rather than relative to other countries.
Sure, Chicken Little. That's why we have the highest GDP per capita of any country larger than a wheat thin (sorry, Norway, you need people to be considered a sizeable country).
That's also why the US leads the world in innovation, technology and entertainment.
Sure, our government is fiscally irresponsible and Americans are too fat and use social media too much. But "stee ...[text shortened]... ng any more advanced than American cities (again, save for inter-city train travel and walkability).
Our GDP numbers are fine, but they are fueled by government and personal debt, plus AGI speculation, not actual economic productivity.
And while I sometimes like comparisons to other countries, we can conclude steep decline while leaving that aspect out of it.
@sh76 said"Leader in innovation and technology" my ass; we don't have a single humanoid robot chasing wild boars:https://www.reddit.com/r/interesting/comments/1vb618l/robot_chases_wild_boar_through_the_streets_of/
Sure, Chicken Little. That's why we have the highest GDP per capita of any country larger than a wheat thin (sorry, Norway, you need people to be considered a sizeable country).
That's also why the US leads the world in innovation, technology and entertainment.
Sure, our government is fiscally irresponsible and Americans are too fat and use social media too much. But "stee ...[text shortened]... ng any more advanced than American cities (again, save for inter-city train travel and walkability).
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@moonbus said
He had help--
https://www.investors.com/news/management/leaders-and-success/emmy-noether-meet-the-unsung-whiz-who-helped-einstein-with-his-math/
From the above linked article:
By 1915, her reputation was such that she was invited back to Göttingen to work with Klein and Hilbert — unofficially and without pay. Women were still not permitted on the faculty.
It was during this period that she corresponded with Einstein,
In 1915 Einstein was 36 years old and as Alan Turing put it in the recent movie,
Well, Newton discovered binomial theorem aged 22. Einstein wrote four papers that changed the world by the age of 26. As far as I can tell, I've barely made par".
@AThousandYoung saidOK, so I understated in saying he was mediocre. Still, there were other much more gifted mathematicians than Einstein.From the above linked article:
By 1915, her reputation was such that she was invited back to Göttingen to work with Klein and Hilbert — unofficially and without pay. Women were still not permitted on the faculty.
It was during this period that she corresponded with Einstein,
In 1915 Einstein was 36 years old and as Alan Turing put it in the rec ...[text shortened]... papers that changed the world by the age of 26. As far as I can tell, I've barely made par".[/quote]
@sh76 saidSome features of a society become apparent only to a resident, not to a tourist.
I've been in Europe a few times in the past year (Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Athens, London, and Krakow, specifically), and aside from the cities being geographically smaller and this more walkable, I really don't see any big advantages that we're missing out on. The London and Frankfurt metros are barely nicer than New York's, and not as nice as Washington's. And even "bad" US air ...[text shortened]... ng any more advanced than American cities (again, save for inter-city train travel and walkability).
1. There is in America a widespread and chronic low-level desperation which is absent in Europe. There is a functioning safety net in Europe which is lacking in America. No one in Europe has existential angst that, if he loses his job from one week to the next, he will not be able to pay the rent/mortgage and be turned out in the street because the landlord throws him out or the bank forecloses the loan, not be able to pay health insurance and succumb to flu living under a bridge. This is a very real fear for millions of Americans who live literally from one paycheck to the next with nothing left over to invest in the stock market or an engine rebuild for a broken down car.
U.S. govt census figures indicate that 35 million Americans, roughly 10% of the population, are living below the poverty line.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2025/demo/p60-287.html
These are not lazy bums who refuse to work or illegal immigrants. These are American citizens who have jobs, often two jobs, who can't make ends meet because fat cats don't pay living wages.
Factor in the people dependent on the 35 million, their wives and children, and the figure rises to 60 million living in permanent poverty in America. 60 million is roughly the population of England. In a post-industrial country, this is outrageous. It is not for lack of resources that so many Americans are living in their cars; it's because of massive wealth inequality and politicians in hock to the ultra-rich.
2. Another thing not apparent to the casual tourist is functioning national health care, free at the point of consumption. When a European goes to the doctor, the first question is "where does it hurt?", not, as in America, "how are you paying for this?"
3. I will mention one more item which is apparent to the resident and not the causal tourist, and then I'll shut up: gun deaths per 100,000.
USA: 4.42, or 15,000 total in 2023.
Switzerland (with many firearms in private ownership) had 12 gun deaths in 2023, or 0.14 per 100,000.
You won't find any European country with a rate above 1.0 per 100,000, and most are under 0.2 per 100,000.
School shootings: 109 such incidents were recorded in the US between 2000 and 2022, compared to six in France, five in Germany, three in Finland and two each in the UK, Austria, Italy, the Netherlands, and Switzerland during the same period.
sources:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
https://www.dw.com/en/graz-austria-europe-school-shootings-us-crime-guns-firearms/a-72860334
As these items indicate, in terms of social advancement, America is decades behind Europe. The GOP's cancellation of public funding for social programs, education, and scientific research will cause America to fall farther and farther behind.