Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    17 Jul '18 12:37
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Now that our beloved President Donald J Trump has stood on the world stage in Helsinki and flipped the middle finger to America's law enforcement and intelligence communities by taking the word of a murdering dictator and former KGB operative over his own intel. people with a mountain of evidence to backup their claims of Russian interference in the 2016 ele ...[text shortened]... onald?" Will this finally move the needle? I'd put the odds at 1 chance in 3. Any other guess's?
    - Flips the finger to American law enforcement...
    - American law enforcement does not have the evidence or the beginning of evidence after over a year of investigation to establish collusion between Trump & Russia, yet the whole of the media and higher ups within American "law enforcement" (lol) basically have orchestrated a witch hunt.

    No, this isn't going to move any needle.

    I feel better than ever now knowing that my President doesn't want some bloody pointless continued cold war of rhetoric with a highly ifnluetnial, powerful nation...

    ... and a more rational actor than Germany or Sweden.
  2. Germany
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    17 Jul '18 12:56
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    - Flips the finger to American law enforcement...
    - American law enforcement does not have the evidence or the beginning of evidence after over a year of investigation to establish collusion between Trump & Russia, yet the whole of the media and higher ups within American "law enforcement" (lol) basically have orchestrated a witch hunt.

    No, this isn ...[text shortened]... highly ifnluetnial, powerful nation...

    ... and a more rational actor than Germany or Sweden.
    What would the "beginning of evidence" look like in your mind? Gathering evidence, serving indictments and convicting criminals apparently isn't it. What does it take? Donnie taking it up his rear end by Putin on live TV? Wait... that actually just happened.
  3. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    17 Jul '18 23:31
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    What would the "beginning of evidence" look like in your mind? Gathering evidence, serving indictments and convicting criminals apparently isn't it. What does it take? Donnie taking it up his rear end by Putin on live TV? Wait... that actually just happened.
    There hasn't been a single person meaningfully close to the Trump campaign that has been indicted for something that resembles collusion...

    To me, the threshold of evidence would be something like actual convictions and undeniable evidence of trusted Trump liasons meeting people who are known as active Russian spies...

    Oh yes, kazet, I do realize that is an incredibly high bar, and that it is extremely easy for any intelligence operation to avoid revealing something that obvious. In fact, avoiding things like that is probably so easy that I would actually be suspicious of evidence that wasn't absolutely 100% publicly verifiable of it.

    And that is what is scary about conspiracy theorists: they can really just choose to believe some collusion story and line up all of this circumstantial "evidence" & treat it as legitimate and make these grand narratives.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Jul '18 23:441 edit
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    There hasn't been a single person meaningfully close to the Trump campaign that has been indicted for something that resembles collusion...

    To me, the threshold of evidence would be something like actual convictions and undeniable evidence of trusted Trump liasons meeting people who are known as active Russian spies...

    Oh yes, kazet, I do realize t ...[text shortened]... all of this circumstantial "evidence" & treat it as legitimate and make these grand narratives.
    Stuff like this:

    Defendant PAPADOPOULOS claimed that his interactions with an
    overseas professor, who defendant PAPADOPOULOS understood to have substantial
    connections to Russian government officials, occurred before defendant PAP ADOPOULOS became a foreign policy adviser to the Campaign. Defendant PAPADOPOULOS acknowledged that the professor had told him about the Russians possessing "dirt" on then-candidate Hillary Clinton in the form of"thousands of emails," but stated multiple times that he learned that information prior to joining the Campaign. In truth and in fact, however, defendant PAPADOPOULOS learned he would be an advisor to the Campaign in early March, and met the professor on or about March 14, 2016; the professor only took interest in defendant PAPADOPOULOS because of his status with the Campaign; and the professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS about the "thousands of emails" on or about April 26, 2016, when defendant
    PAPADOPOULOS had been a foreign policy adviser to the Campaign for over a month.

    b. Defendant PAPADOPOULOS further told the investigating agents that the
    professor was "a nothing" and "just a guy talk[ing] up connections or something." In truth and in fact, however, defendant PAPADOPOULOS understood that the professor had substantial connections to Russian government officials (and had met with some of those officials in Moscow immediately prior to telling defendant PAPADOPOULOS about the "thousands of emails") and, over a period of months, defendant PAPADOPOULOS repeatedly sought to use the professor's Russian connections in an effort to arrange a meeting between the Campaign and Russian government officials.

    c. Defendant PAPADOPOULOS claimed he met a certain female Russian
    national before he joined the Campaign and that their communications consisted of emails such as, '"Hi , how are you?"' In truth and in fact, however, defendant PAPADOPOULOS met the
    2

    female Russian national on or about March 24, 2016, after he had become an adviser to the Campaign; he believed that she had connections to Russian government officials; and he sought to use her Russian connections over a period of months in an effort to arrange a meeting between the Campaign and Russian government officials.

    https://www.justice.gov/file/1007346/download

    That kind of stuff?
  5. Zugzwang
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    17 Jul '18 23:50
    Originally posted by @ponderable
    sometimes is is necessary to wave the sarcasm flag...
    The nearly illiterate 'readers' here typically find ways to jump to absurd conclusions about what I write.
  6. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    18 Jul '18 00:06
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The nearly illiterate 'readers' here typically find ways to jump to absurd conclusions about what I write.
    Why should you continue to gift us with your eminent presence then?
    You must be a very generous person.
    Why, you're a regular Annie Sullivan, you are.
  7. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    18 Jul '18 04:10
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Stuff like this:

    Defendant PAPADOPOULOS claimed that his interactions with an
    overseas professor, who defendant PAPADOPOULOS understood to have substantial
    connections to Russian government officials, occurred before defendant PAP ADOPOULOS became a foreign policy adviser to the Campaign. [b]Defendant PAPADOPOULOS acknowledged that the professor ha ...[text shortened]... an government officials.

    https://www.justice.gov/file/1007346/download

    That kind of stuff?
    Right, it's so absolutely suspicious that Papadopoulos is interested in arranging a foreign policy trip to the second most powerful country on earth for the man running for the Presidency of the most powerful country on earth.

    What are the odds that a US Presidential candidate's adviser would have contact with the Russians?!

    It MUST be collusion!

    Teh female Russian national is allegedly a niece of Putin. Not an agent.

    But like... SURE, if you believe there is a conspiracy, then everything is decontextualized and arranged in a new way to fit your conspiracy.

    Which is why we have this asinine stories about some wealthy 60 year old Ukrainian millionaire who once did a deal with Manafort or whoever and who once a "Russian military officer" now is spun to substantiate some bogus claims about collusion.

    ... You're a lawyer, right?

    ... Can you explain to us what 'circumstantial evidence' is?
  8. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    18 Jul '18 04:15
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Now that our beloved President Donald J Trump has stood on the world stage in Helsinki and flipped the middle finger to America's law enforcement and intelligence communities by taking the word of a murdering dictator and former KGB operative over his own intel. people with a mountain of evidence to backup their claims of Russian interference in the 2016 ele ...[text shortened]... onald?" Will this finally move the needle? I'd put the odds at 1 chance in 3. Any other guess's?
    1. Trump is a bigger fan of law enforcement than any single Democrat I can think of.
    2. With no-good partisan hacks like Clapper, Comey, McCabe, Strzok and Page? Trump has every reason to question our "intelligence community." The same "community" that said we needed to invade Iraq because Hussein had WMDs. The same "community" of people that blamed 4 dead Americans in Benghazi on a youtube video (and threw the video's producer in prison just to make the lie more convincing).
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    18 Jul '18 04:21
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Right, it's so absolutely suspicious that Papadopoulos is interested in arranging a foreign policy trip to the second most powerful country on earth for the man running for the Presidency of the most powerful country on earth.

    What are the odds that a US Presidential candidate's adviser would have contact with the Russians?!

    It MUST be collusion! ...[text shortened]...

    ... You're a lawyer, right?

    ... Can you explain to us what 'circumstantial evidence' is?
    I guessed you missed the part about the thousands of (stolen) Hillary e-mails.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    18 Jul '18 04:25
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    1. Trump is a bigger fan of law enforcement than any single Democrat I can think of.
    2. With no-good partisan hacks like Clapper, Comey, McCabe, Strzok and Page? Trump has every reason to question our "intelligence community." The same "community" that said we needed to invade Iraq because Hussein had WMDs. The same "community" of people that blame ...[text shortened]... a youtube video (and threw the video's producer in prison just to make the lie more convincing).
    Trump changed his mind today; the intelligence community is right about Russian interference.
  11. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    18 Jul '18 04:50
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Trump changed his mind today; the intelligence community is right about Russian interference.
    True. I still think the thing was a gaffe but I was doing a little 'devil's advocate' with my 2nd point. Some are saying he "changed his mind" under pressure since both parties jumped all over him for his statement. I mean, my point does stand. The intelligence community has shown some serious flashes of unintelligence many times and with their known extreme hatred for Trump, he actually does have reason to question their findings.

    Here's a conspiracy theory for you. Maybe the never-Trumpers in leadership at the CIA and FBI (known fact they exist) have planted a fake intelligence bomb (the so-called 'insurance policy' Strzok mentioned?) implicating Russians in high crimes, blowing up in Trump's face as he tries to make friends with Putin.

    Maybe I should put together an article on this with a couple of circular links, set it free on facebook, and watch it go viral.
  12. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 Jul '18 05:32
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Now that our beloved President Donald J Trump has stood on the world stage in Helsinki and flipped the middle finger to America's law enforcement and intelligence communities by taking the word of a murdering dictator and former KGB operative over his own intel. people with a mountain of evidence to backup their claims of Russian interference in the 2016 ele ...[text shortened]... onald?" Will this finally move the needle? I'd put the odds at 1 chance in 3. Any other guess's?
    With repubs in his pocket I'd say more like one in 100.
  13. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 Jul '18 05:373 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Trump changed his mind today; the intelligence community is right about Russian interference.
    You godda be kidding. Trump change his mind? When was the last time he did that?
    He NEVER changes his mind. One frigging word change set up by Pence? All the times before he dissed the entire intelligence community and now all of a sudden 24 hours after that summit debacle, he decides he made a GAFFE? Just how naive are you then?

    And move the needle? The only way the needle will move is that which helps Trump. Maybe the needle will penetrate fully after the November mid terms if Democrats actually get their pretty stupid act together and win a huge majority in both houses. THAT is the ONLY thing capable of moving the needle anywhere against Trump.

    Even then, if the needle fully penetrates Trump, and he gets impeached, who do we end up with? Great choice. Pence. Whooppee.

    We may have to wait till 2020 and boot his ass out and get a real person in.
  14. Germany
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    18 Jul '18 06:40
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    There hasn't been a single person meaningfully close to the Trump campaign that has been indicted for something that resembles collusion...

    To me, the threshold of evidence would be something like actual convictions and undeniable evidence of trusted Trump liasons meeting people who are known as active Russian spies...

    Oh yes, kazet, I do realize t ...[text shortened]... all of this circumstantial "evidence" & treat it as legitimate and make these grand narratives.
    Wait... you think people are pleading guilty to felonies in order to frame Trump?
  15. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    18 Jul '18 09:27
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I guessed you missed the part about the thousands of (stolen) Hillary e-mails.
    How would that be relevant? It would only serve to theoretically establish that the Russians had the stolen emails before Pres. Trump even knew of their existence.
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