@averagejoe1 saidIt's impossible to answer your posts since you have absolutely no idea what "socialism" is.
I would LOVE to see 50 guys buy a sock factory together, work there, and make a boatload of money. They can easily do that as they work through the mine field of govt regulations.
There would be no socialist influence I presume? No socialist society where, when the dust settles, that the citizens are socialists. I own one. Am I Socialist? There are 30M businesses in t ...[text shortened]... sinesses all over the country. Capitalists Galore%!!!!
In other words, what you talkin’ bout?
Perhaps you could simply tell me whether you consider the measures that Z mentions to be "socialist" (they aren't but I need a starting point).
1 edit
@no1marauder said"the measures that Z mentions to be "socialist" (they aren't but I need a starting point)."
It's impossible to answer your posts since you have absolutely no idea what "socialism" is.
Perhaps you could simply tell me whether you consider the measures that Z mentions to be "socialist" (they aren't but I need a starting point).
I smell a duchess style nitpicking coming up.
I answered his question "what do socialists want to change about America" (with ignoring the obvious idiocy that Sanders or the squad are actually full fledged socialists instead of socialist democrats)
But back to your nitpicking, which of those isn't "socialist" enough? (I need a starting point)
The post that was quoted here has been removedAgain, when discussing with simpletons like the joe, going into too much details is worthless. What do they get about nuance? They will label Sanders and the squad as communists anyway.
He asked what do those "socialists" want, I ignored him calling them socialists and I actually answered with a list and asked him to entertain me with which one of those measures they support will turn the US into a socialist hellhole.
He wasn't that funny, i am sad to say.
@AverageJoe1 liberals do not hate America. Nations are human constructs. Think of a nation as a child. Citizens, especially in a democracy, are the parents and responsible for the growth, development and direction of their nation. In countries where control is limited to a few, revolts by the masses often threaten to overtake that control.
Parents who praise their children no matter what they do, ignoring when their children misbehave, hurt others, are bullies, lie, cheat and engage in all manner of socially unacceptable behavior, are generally considered bad parents. It is the same for citizens of a nation, especially in a democracy where citizens can vote and enjoy free speech. Liberals love our nation, not a piece of cloth. We want a nation that acts responsibly towards the environment, its citizens and other nations. We want a nation that is respected by the citizens of other nations. We want a nation that is a leader. All nations and governments are imperfect because they are created and maintained by humans and we are not perfect. Striving to be a more perfect union is at the heart of being a liberal.
1 edit
The post that was quoted here has been removedRegardless of what AOC, Tlaib or Bernie call themselves, they aren't "socialists": "SOCIALISM: a social system in which the producers possess both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods. http://www.spunk.org/library/intro/faq/sp001547/secA1.html#seca14
That means "socialists" are opposed to capitalism and wish to see its eventual abolition. Quite obviously, none of those mention embrace such a view; they are in favor of smoothing out the rough edges of capitalism but not abolishing it.
They would be called "social democrats" in most countries: "Sanders is not a typical socialist. Sure, he believes in a highly regulated and heavily taxed private enterprise, but he does not seem to want the state to own banks and make cars. Considering the negative connotations of “socialism” in America, it is a bit of a puzzle why Sanders insists on using that word. It would be much less contentious and more correct if he gave his worldview its proper name: not “democratic socialism,” which implies socialism brought about through a vote, but social democracy." https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/471630/
@phranny saidVery well written, and I could apply your thoughts to what conservatives want as well. But you do not say how to accomplish that. I am afraid that the answer of liberals is 'more government control', to just name one thing. You can simply google a million websites which say that.
@AverageJoe1 liberals do not hate America. Nations are human constructs. Think of a nation as a child. Citizens, especially in a democracy, are the parents and responsible for the growth, development and direction of their nation. In countries where control is limited to a few, revolts by the masses often threaten to overtake that control.
Parents who praise their children ...[text shortened]... mans and we are not perfect. Striving to be a more perfect union is at the heart of being a liberal.
Conservatives detest government control, we are into freedom and liberty. With all due respects, your statement does not mention those two words. Please think on that. Government control stifles liberty.
So therein is the kerfuffle. Frankly, I think there will never be a meeting of the minds.
@averagejoe1 saidConservatives don't "detest government control"; they detest government control of them. Government control of women's bodies is OK; government control by justifying police violence against unarmed POC or peaceful demonstrators is fine; government control to severely restrict immigration in order to keep the country "white" is necessary; etc. etc. etc. etc.
Very well written, and I could apply your thoughts to what conservatives want as well. But you do not say how to accomplish that. I am afraid that the answer of liberals is 'more government control', to just name one thing. You can simply google a million websites which say that.
Conservatives detest government control, we are into freedom and liberty. With all due ...[text shortened]... ty.
So therein is the kerfuffle. Frankly, I think there will never be a meeting of the minds.
They want government to enforce the "natural" hierarchy they believe in i.e. one in favor of white male elites in the US.
@AverageJoe1 the role of government is to keep the playing field level and the rules of the game fair so all may prosper. Capitalism depends on competition which has greatly diminished over the past 40 years, thanks to the GOP and the their belief that government is always bad. Business, the economy, are human constructs built on laws surrounding contracts, patents, safety rules and regs etc. It is the role of government to create an atmosphere where competition helps drive down cost, fuels innovation, drives up wages and protects workers and consumers from dangerous products and environments that harm health.
@no1marauder saidDont tell me you are on the 'white elites' train. That is not like you, seriously.
Conservatives don't "detest government control"; they detest government control of them. Government control of women's bodies is OK; government control by justifying police violence against unarmed POC or peaceful demonstrators is fine; government control to severely restrict immigration in order to keep the country "white" is necessary; etc. etc. etc. etc.
Th ...[text shortened]... to enforce the "natural" hierarchy they believe in i.e. one in favor of white male elites in the US.
Above, the 'women's bodies' comment. Do you not have even one scintilla of maybe understanding, just a little bit, how a human being, like me, or you, for that matter, is disgusted at the ending of a life (of another human), esp a defenseless baby? Are you a Sonhouse disciple that says they are not babies?? I get your lib argument, dont get me wrong,,,,,,how it is cheaper to do that than support the woman who has all these babies, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But why don't you get OUR arguments? Killing the baby. You just say out of hand, we are wrong.
1 edit
@averagejoe1 saidAnti-abortion laws are "government control", are they not? You don't "detest" them, do you?
Dont tell me you are on the 'white elites' train. That is not like you, seriously.
Above, the 'women's bodies' comment. Do you not have even one scintilla of maybe understanding, just a little bit, how a human being, like me, or you, for that matter, is disgusted at the ending of a life (of another human), esp a defenseless baby? Are you a Sonhouse disciple that say ...[text shortened]...
But why don't you get OUR arguments? Killing the baby. You just say out of hand, we are wrong.
I'm not interested in you forcing your personal beliefs on pregnant women by the use of the State's criminal laws. I'm interested in how your belief in government interference in women's reproductive decisions clashes with your claim that you oppose "government control".
And to be clear, I have no intention in engaging in an abortion thread; we've had countless ones on this Forum and they all dissolve into right wingers screeching "You just want to kill babies!". I'll skip that idiocy if you don't mind (and even if you do mind) and concentrate on your insistence that conservatives "detest government control" in light of the positions I have mentioned above.
@no1marauder saidWe agree, no abortion talk. Lord it would invite the Sonhouse. Just to be clear, I have always said women indeed have a right to rid themselves of the child prior to its birth, within reason, the old 26-week rule, or whatever it is.
Anti-abortion laws are "government control", are they not? You don't "detest" them, do you?
I'm not interested in you forcing your personal beliefs on pregnant women by the use of the State's criminal laws. I'm interested in how your belief in government interference in women's reproductive decisions clashes with your claim that you oppose "government control".
And ...[text shortened]... nce that conservatives "detest government control" in light of the positions I have mentioned above.
I have only complained and whined that I have to pay for it. If I wasn't forced by your govt to pay for it, which I presently am, why. I could put that money towards my yacht!!! It just aint right. What can I get the nation's tax money to pay for me, since she is getting that for free!???!?!?!?? Not very equal, Marauder. It just aint fair.
@averagejoe1 saidNo Federal funds can be used to pay for abortions except in cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother; this has been true since 1976. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Amendment
We agree, no abortion talk. Lord it would invite the Sonhouse. Just to be clear, I have always said women indeed have a right to rid themselves of the child prior to its birth, within reason, the old 26-week rule, or whatever it is.
I have only complained and whined that I have to pay for it. If I wasn't forced by your govt to pay for it, which I presently am, why. ...[text shortened]... or me, since she is getting that for free!???!?!?!?? Not very equal, Marauder. It just aint fair.
15 State do use their own funds to pay for abortions. https://www.kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/abortion-under-medicaid/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D#
If you are in one of them, the People there disagree with your position.
@averagejoe1 said
There is some tenet in the world of tort law about Duty of Care. We cons wince at the idea of the liberal mindset, that those guys with all that money need to stop in their tracks and wait for folks to catch up, all the while giving them money. Do you think they have a 'duty' to the rest of society? We want those guys to keep producing, but should we hamstring them? They ...[text shortened]... of Apple stock, would vote to reduce their income, their monthly dividends, paid to them by Apple??
Do you think they have a 'duty' to the rest of society?
They have a duty to country. The country that provides the protections of the military and the constitutional freedom to pursue capitalist endeavors.
That duty requires corporations to pay their workers a livable wage, lest the government need to step in and foot the remainder of the bill. This welfare state that you are so often complaining about is being perpetuated by unfair business practices that necessitate government assistance.
@no1marauder saidPeople disagree all the time. Take you and me for instance. I like freedom and liberty, you have never written those words.
No Federal funds can be used to pay for abortions except in cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother; this has been true since 1976. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Amendment
15 State do use their own funds to pay for abortions. https://www.kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/abortion-under-medicaid/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Locatio ...[text shortened]... %22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D#
If you are in one of them, the People there disagree with your position.