@jimmac saidAbsolutely agree. It goes back frankly to some people working harder than others. Turn them loose for god sake’s, and make a great society
A hierarchy is both desirable and necessary to a thriving society and perfectly "natural". Someone/s will/must rise to the top to lead whatever system is in place. Even in your utopian construct this may be a group or groups, this "is" a hierarchy. Society would be condemned without this "naturally" occurring event.
I am sorry but it is nonsense to suggest otherwise. And t ...[text shortened]... systems, as long as it has social at its core. Averagejoe1 may differ with me on this but maybe not.
For what it is worth, setting parameters as they would for free enterprise does not mean making regulations stifling free Enterprise
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@jimmac saidMan's nature is to be resistant to authority; in every age hierarchy has been maintained only by force.
A hierarchy is both desirable and necessary to a thriving society and perfectly "natural". Someone/s will/must rise to the top to lead whatever system is in place. Even in your utopian construct this may be a group or groups, this "is" a hierarchy. Society would be condemned without this "naturally" occurring event.
I am sorry but it is nonsense to suggest otherwise. And t ...[text shortened]... systems, as long as it has social at its core. Averagejoe1 may differ with me on this but maybe not.
Egalitarianism, not obedience, is in our genes.
@no1marauder saidIf you put it that way, the head of the school board Exercises force.
Man's nature is to be resistant to authority; in every age hierarchy has been maintained only by force.
Egalitarianism, not obedience, is in our genes.
No argument about equality. Everyone comes into the world equal to the baby in the crib next to him. Two arms two legs. There after, his existence will not be equal with any of the other 7 billion Thereafter, his existence will not be equal with any of the other 7 billion people in the world, it will be different. It is impossible for everyone to be exactly equal.
So what are you getting at?
@no1marauder saidit is in the nature of "some" men to be resistant to authority and I see that as a good thing. It helps keep balance.
Man's nature is to be resistant to authority; in every age hierarchy has been maintained only by force.
Egalitarianism, not obedience, is in our genes.
And I put it to you that egalitarianism by its very nature requires obedience. obedience to each other, respect etc, that in itself is a form of obedience. When someone, circumstantially, takes the lead, ( Most anthropologists believe that hunter-gatherers do not have permanent leaders; instead, the person taking the initiative at any one time ) your "quote", this requires the rest to be obedient. That means do as you are told, do not argue etc. so they continually change leaders?? depending on the task. who decides who knows best? A leader?? has to be.
Cannot see it myself
@jimmac saidHunter gatherers make decisions by consensus; they don't appoint temporary dictators and then do whatever they are told.
it is in the nature of "some" men to be resistant to authority and I see that as a good thing. It helps keep balance.
And I put it to you that egalitarianism by its very nature requires obedience. obedience to each other, respect etc, that in itself is a form of obedience. When someone, circumstantially, takes the lead, ( Most anthropologists believe that hunter-gatherers d ...[text shortened]... rs?? depending on the task. who decides who knows best? A leader?? has to be.
Cannot see it myself
@no1marauder saidI always say a consensus means that "most likely", no-one gets what they want as everyone settles for less than they wanted, and how the blazes would you reach this "consensus" round table conference?
Hunter gatherers make decisions by consensus; they don't appoint temporary dictators and then do whatever they are told.
Damn near every animal I can think of has a hierarchy ( the natural order of things, ie a natural consequence of our existence, unavoidable ) and I do not believe that man is any better.
And how can one possibly "know" what hunter gatherers did, you can not, you can only speculate.
@no1marauder saidI get your hunter gatherer posts, but are you relating them to today's society? Do you replace the word consensus with the word vote? Well, yes, then that is what we do now, and maybe what they did around the campfires.
Hunter gatherers make decisions by consensus; they don't appoint temporary dictators and then do whatever they are told.
And you are writing in present tense, that, 'hunter gatherers make decisions," and hunter gatherers 'don't appoint', as if they are here now....maybe so, if we are talking about Menonites or other sects like that.
But in the real world, we make decisions by vote, and we elect (not appoint) leaders, not temporary dictators. I still dont get where you are going with all this. Is mine just plainer english?
@no1marauder saidNot being smarty, here, but George Floyd resisted authority. He should have heard the officer and responded to the request of the officer. So his 'Nature' did not serve him well.
Man's nature is to be resistant to authority; in every age hierarchy has been maintained only by force.
Egalitarianism, not obedience, is in our genes.
I, myself, use common sense. If everyone did right, like Floyd should have, there would be no need to resist legal authority. I assume you are speaking of legal authority. Certainly you don't have a lib bumper sticker that says "QUESTION AUTHORITY'. A lib brother of mine had one.
@jimmac saidHunter gatherer societies still exist and many have been extensively studied. https://www.huntercourse.com/blog/2011/05/amazing-hunter-gatherer-societies-still-in-existence/
I always say a consensus means that "most likely", no-one gets what they want as everyone settles for less than they wanted, and how the blazes would you reach this "consensus" round table conference?
Damn near every animal I can think of has a hierarchy ( the natural order of things, ie a natural consequence of our existence, unavoidable ) and I do not believe that man is ...[text shortened]... r.
And how can one possibly "know" what hunter gatherers did, you can not, you can only speculate.
Decision by consensus is exhibited in virtually all these societies.
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@averagejoe1 saidGeorge Floyd was murdered and his killer just got sentenced to a lengthy prison term.
Not being smarty, here, but George Floyd resisted authority. He should have heard the officer and responded to the request of the officer. So his 'Nature' did not serve him well.
I, myself, use common sense. If everyone did right, like Floyd should have, there would be no need to resist legal authority. I assume you are speaking of legal authority. Certainly you don't have a lib bumper sticker that says "QUESTION AUTHORITY'. A lib brother of mine had one.
@no1marauder saidWho cares? Do you have any idea what Biden is up to???? Holy smokes. The tribes in Africa or whoever you are talking about have not budged from their way of life in 10,000 years .......and they won't, so why don't we study them after the Republicans clean up what is all around us. The tribes are not on our list of things to do.
Hunter gatherer societies still exist and many have been extensively studied. https://www.huntercourse.com/blog/2011/05/amazing-hunter-gatherer-societies-still-in-existence/
Decision by consensus is exhibited in virtually all these societies.
@no1marauder saidI did see that. Are you losing it, Marauder? Please don't leave us with Sonhouse.
George Floyd was murdered and his killer just got sentenced to a lengthy prison sentence.
@averagejoe1 saidYou seem to think it was George Floyd's fault he was murdered.
I did see that. Are you losing it, Marauder? Please don't leave us with Sonhouse.
The jury felt differently.
@averagejoe1 saidI understand that you are too stupid to grasp the main point I am making i.e. that humans evolved in a certain way and that present hierarchical systems are a poor fit for our nature.
Who cares? Do you have any idea what Biden is up to???? Holy smokes. The tribes in Africa or whoever you are talking about have not budged from their way of life in 10,000 years .......and they won't, so why don't we study them after the Republicans clean up what is all around us. The tribes are not on our list of things to do.
Perhaps others can, however.
@no1marauder saidhierarchical systems, are unavoidable and vital. they are in pretty well all domains of nature, Man is no different.
I understand that you are too stupid to grasp the main point I am making i.e. that humans evolved in a certain way and that present hierarchical systems are a poor fit for our nature.
Perhaps others can, however.