@no1marauder saidThe plane would not have been shot down if ground forces had not made a mistake of identification. Seems you are going deep, like, ...
It's an example of the truth which you hate.
The plane would have never been shot down IF the US hadn't meddled in Iraq's favor in the war it started against Iran..
What About If........ "If the ground forces had been playing rugby outside instead of watching their faulty intel, it would otherwise would not have happened."
There are a lot of reasons you can dream up as to how it 'might not have happened'. It was a mistake, Marauder. Jesus.
Tell us some more possibilities!!!!
PS: Note that Marauder, like all of you, is a foreign relations/war expert. and implies we should not have been involved (meddled, a scurrilous word) in the affaris of Iraq. Given the final downfall of Iraq, ends up we were right!
@shavixmir saidYou say I don't answer? This one blew by me, sorry.
The USSR played a larger part in winning WW2 than the US did; in Europe, and arguably against Japan too.
And every single time the US has involved itself in the Middle-East it’s only made matter worse.
And arguably, the same can be said about it interfering with Africa and Southern America as well.
You do not comprehend history. You do not understand international po ...[text shortened]... debate in peace.
You’re like the 7th wheel screaming about ice cream in the middle of a divorce.
Yes, Russia may have lost more men, esp on the eastern front as I recall, but the United States supplied massive industrial production, Lynn lease and beat the hell out of Japan in the Pacific, and we also opened the Western front in Europe in case you don't remember that part. So let us recognize the sacrfices of the Soviet Union no question, but don't pretend that we did not play a decisive role.
So what is your beef when you realize that historians understand that it was an allied effort. You waste my time on this one, it was an easy answer.
Ask me another question.
@sonhouse saidWe are not unaware of children and men and women lost in times of war. you write as if that 'shold not happen', or that we should 'own up. to it' , or just stop killing children.?? May I respond logically, in the hopes that you will see that it is not a problem easily solved??
Yeah, bad thinking to feel for the deaths of children no matter what century. YOU just refuse to accept WE are the ones who murdered those children through incompetence. No big surprise, that is Trump's MO. His RELIGION since he HATES competence so his big love is the love of INCOMPETENCE because he can then think I am top dog here, I tell those low life servants what to do.
You base your comment on morality, or giving us all a 'guilt-trip'. You are saying that if the US intervenes anywhere, things get worse. But sonhouse, sometimes not acting makes things worse, too. We are facd with the lesser of two evils. We cannot allow aggression or terrorism to expand. If the world follows your rule, never intervening, like marauder says, then World War II would have ended very differently.
You assume that the alternative to US involvement is peace. That is Pollyanna stuff. What is left is unchecked aggression.
Morality is all well and good, but force is the only thing that stops worse violence. The real question is we have to compare to what alternative.
Remember that appeasement allowed Hitler to advance step-by-step. Everybody said, like marauder says today, avoid conflict and things will calm down. Do you believe that , Sonhouse?
@AverageJoe1 saidThe problem Joe is that 47 years of history, hides a sordid past before it. Let's not forget the puppet dictatorship the US held in place for many a decade with the Shah of Iran before the hostage crisis and the Ayatollah's taking over, and how the US backed him to suppress the will of the Iranian people, which is why they revolted against the US backed Shah regime and ushered in the era of theocracy under the Ayatollah's in the first place.
A recent poll says about 50% of people don’t know why Iran is considered a threat or why the U.S. would attack them. Some say President Trump hasn’t explained the reasons. That raises a simple question: have yall been paying attention for the past 47 years?
Your problem is you think in terms of 4 or 8 political cycles that match different administrations, but the Iranians kept their focus on deals and promises made.
Do some historical research before 1979!
@shavixmir saidI agree in Europe. Except the US liberated France and the Netherlands. Hitler had a non-aggression pact with the USSR until late in the war, when they were toast anyways. USSR did liberate several of the concentration camps, which was a good thing by any estimation, taking back Poland in the process.
The USSR played a larger part in winning WW2 than the US did; in Europe, and arguably against Japan too.
But my biggest disagreement here is with you saying "arguably against Japan, too."
The grinding war across the Pacific was hard fought by thousands of Americans who gave their blood and lives to bring the war to Hirohito. The Battle of Midway alone resulted in sinking four Japanese carriers and was the defining turning point for the war in the Pacific. My father was a Navy man (he got up to Captain (O-6), he was so handsome in his Service Dress Whites), and studying the battles of WW2 in the Pacific was pretty much a requirement in my house growing up.
@AverageJoe1 saidTrump doesn't have a CLUE as to how to run a war, he is all bluster, then attack something, then the stock market crashes, I WON and lets go home......
We are not unaware of children and men and women lost in times of war. you write as if that 'shold not happen', or that we should 'own up. to it' , or just stop killing children.?? May I respond logically, in the hopes that you will see that it is not a problem easily solved??
You base your comment on morality, or giving us all a 'guilt-trip'. You are saying that if ...[text shortened]... like marauder says today, avoid conflict and things will calm down. Do you believe that , Sonhouse?
@Suzianne saidHitler invaded Russia in 1941. By 1943 (the battle of Stalingrad) the Germans were in retreat. The Eastern front is the reason the Germans couldn’t defend the Western front properly. It was the Eastern front that ground them down.
I agree in Europe. Except the US liberated France and the Netherlands. Hitler had a non-aggression pact with the USSR until late in the war, when they were toast anyways. USSR did liberate several of the concentration camps, which was a good thing by any estimation, taking back Poland in the process.
But my biggest disagreement here is with you saying "arguably against ...[text shortened]... and studying the battles of WW2 in the Pacific was pretty much a requirement in my house growing up.
Yes, the Americans played a major part in the Pacific war. But the Russians and Chinese were already booting them out of the mainland as well.
And the Netherlands were not liberated by America. The allies liberated the Netherlands. For example, Breda was liberated by Polish forces.
@AverageJoe1 saidAverageJoe: rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb…..
A recent poll says about 50% of people don’t know why Iran is considered a threat or why the U.S. would attack them. Some say President Trump hasn’t explained the reasons. That raises a simple question: have yall been paying attention for the past 47 years?
Iran’s conflict with the United States didn’t start yesterday. Over decades there have been terror attacks, hosta ...[text shortened]... d pressed to impeach him for whatever in the world you want to impeach him for. Good luck with that.
Charlie Brown: Good Grief!
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@shavixmir saidNow this, I did not know. (I did know about the Eastern Front. In Shirer's book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich he mentioned that the threat of getting transferred to the Eastern Front was a major way to keep soldiers in line.)
And the Netherlands were not liberated by America. The allies liberated the Netherlands. For example, Breda was liberated by Polish forces.
@Pianoman1 saidYeah, he's showboating. The US has not been actively fighting Iran since the hostage crisis of '79, that's ridiculous.
AverageJoe: rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb…..
Charlie Brown: Good Grief!
@sonhouse saidIn this case, it's an obvious case of the tail wagging the dog.
Trump doesn't have a CLUE as to how to run a war, he is all bluster, then attack something, then the stock market crashes, I WON and lets go home......
Remember Epstein? Remember the economy?
Suddenly the Republicans can't be bothered.
And I still can't get over how we actually have a Fox News guy running the DoD.
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@AverageJoe1 said"Lynn lease"? Are you an idiot?
You say I don't answer? This one blew by me, sorry.
Yes, Russia may have lost more men, esp on the eastern front as I recall, but the United States supplied massive industrial production, Lynn lease and beat the hell out of Japan in the Pacific, and we also opened the Western front in Europe in case you don't remember that part. So let us recognize the sacrfices of ...[text shortened]... s an allied effort. You waste my time on this one, it was an easy answer.
Ask me another question.
The term is "Lend-Lease", also called the Lend-Lease Act. It allowed the US to support the war against Hitler without committing combat troops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
@kmax87 saidYeah, and I think the UK guy ghost is researching the hell of King Henry's treatment of prisoners in the Tower of London, beheaded his own wife. All of us have history, you got that right.
The problem Joe is that 47 years of history, hides a sordid past before it. Let's not forget the puppet dictatorship the US held in place for many a decade with the Shah of Iran before the hostage crisis and the Ayatollah's taking over, and how the US backed him to suppress the will of the Iranian people, which is why they revolted against the US backed Shah regime and ushere ...[text shortened]... e Iranians kept their focus on deals and promises made.
Do some historical research before 1979!
But be that as it may, our more recent history, ours, is that of having to deal with a faction which threatens death to our country, up until we dealt with that, instead of reading history books.
Bad try.