Should database use on RHP be stopped?

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
One last point...if I used a database I'm sure beyond a doubt that my rating would rise.....there would be no more openings, defences, unusual moves that I hadn't come across that would cause me to err as my database would aid me....ergo database use is not fair

Unless everyone gets to use one. I'm actually getting it now. Thanks Xanthos for that excellent explanation. I guess I was wrong after all. 🙂

And my apologies to all for being so slow sometimes. A database does give you an advantage you wouldn't have otherwise (the whole point of using it) but you can't be just some complete dummy when using it (as you can when an engine is doing all the analysis for you). I didn't quite see it that way.

Having realised I was wrong (in bold so there can be no mistaking I'm acknowledging this), I wonder if you guys would consider a hypothetical scenario with me. Suppose I could build a database (with blanks in the proper places, and only the best lines I come across, to keep the size down) and then use a technique that will allow me to use that database such that I only need to do some minimal thinking at certain places. Would that be considered cheating? It's only a database after all?

Edit: Remember, it's hypothetical. Not necessarily realistic.

Originally posted by stocken
Unless everyone gets to use one. I'm actually getting it now. Thanks Xanthos for that excellent explanation. I guess I was wrong after all. 🙂

And my apologies to all for being so slow sometimes. A database does give you an advantage you wouldn't have otherwise (the whole point of using it) but you can't be just some complete dummy when using it (as you c ...[text shortened]... ly a database after all?

Edit: Remember, it's hypothetical. Not necessarily realistic.

Lets make it a 'real' rather than hypothetical experiment.
Use the database over say a set period of a month, see if your rating rises accordingly to your use of the database, in other words if you start to get better results than you did without the database. If you do surely that shows that database use is unfair....

Originally posted by stocken

Having realised I was wrong(in bold so there can be no mistaking I'm acknowledging this), I wonder if you guys would consider a hypothetical scenario with me. Suppose I could build a database (with blanks in the proper places, and only the best lines I come across, to keep the size down) and then use a technique that will allow me to use that databa ...[text shortened]... thinking at certain places. Would that be considered cheating? It's only a database after all?

It depends on the operating method. Endgame tablebases (complete linked lists of < 6 piece positions) are not allowed as they are accessed through an engine. I can't see a way you could possibly create and access such a database in a meaningful way without using an engine or similar.

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Lets make it a 'real' rather than hypothetical experiment.
Use the database over say a set period of a month, see if your rating rises accordingly to your use of the database, in other words if you start to get better results than you did without the database. If you do surely that shows that database use is unfair....

You're making the exact same mistake I did yesterday. You're assuming that using a database (like the ones these guys are talking about) doesn't require any thinking. It does. And a lot.

In that sense it's no different than using a book or the analyze board before making the next move. I'm saying, even if you use "tools" like that to not miss any details, you're still doing all the thinking and deciding your moves. It definitely gives you an advantage you otherwise wouldn't have, but it's impossible to control that in CC and if you're not really good at chess, using databases could conceivably harm your play. No?

Originally posted by stocken
You're making the exact same mistake I did yesterday. You're assuming that using a database (like the ones these guys are talking about) doesn't require any thinking. It does. And a lot.

In that sense it's no different than using a book or the analyze board before making the next move. I'm saying, even if you use "tools" like that to not miss any details, ...[text shortened]... ou're not really good at chess, using databases could conceivably harm your play. No?

If you were a terrible player yea database use would not help you....But if you were a reasonable player it would get you to a secure and well posistioned middle game nearly every time....therefore you have an advantage

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
If you were a terrible player yea database use would not help you....But if you were a reasonable player it would get you to a secure and well posistioned middle game nearly every time....therefore you have an advantage

If I'm a terrible player I wouldn't stand a chance against a player skilled enough to use a database in the first place. Right?

Originally posted by stocken
If I'm a terrible player I wouldn't stand a chance against a player skilled enough to use a database in the first place. Right?

Yes....but if your a reasonable player you are at an advantage if you use a database, its that simple

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Yes....but if your a reasonable player you are at an advantage if you use a database, its that simple

As i said, use your database and see how your rating goes, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
But if database users ever play an OTB game they're stuck!

Not really, I play mainly otb, I see this site as a good way of learning/studying for my otb game

Originally posted by stevetodd
Not really, I play mainly otb, I see this site as a good way of learning/studying for my otb game

Point well taken...but whilst you utilise this site to learn if you use a database, although it helps your learning curve it still puts you at an unfair advantage over your RHP opponent who doesn't use a database, no?

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Point well taken...but whilst you utilise this site to learn if you use a database, although it helps your learning curve it still puts you at an unfair advantage over your RHP opponent who doesn't use a database, no?

Do you think that its unfair for pole vaulters to use a pole, just because for some reason you think using a pole shouldn't be allowed? Or football boots for soccer players, just because you chose to handicap yourself by playing barefoot?

D

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Point well taken...but whilst you utilise this site to learn if you use a database, although it helps your learning curve it still puts you at an unfair advantage over your RHP opponent who doesn't use a database, no?

Using a database obviously does give an advantage, however I would tend to phrase it the other way, i.e. my opponent who decides not to use a database places himself at a disadvantage by choice (as this is cc not live chess). Players can give themselves a challenge by not using one, but anyone that does not want their opponent to use one is on the wrong chess site.

Originally posted by Ragnorak
Do you think that its unfair for pole vaulters to use a pole, just because for some reason you think using a pole shouldn't be allowed? Or football boots for soccer players, just because you chose to handicap yourself by playing barefoot?

D

if the other pole vaulter doesn't have a pole if the other soccer players don't have football boots, then yes i do think its unfair

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
if the other pole vaulter doesn't have a pole if the other soccer players don't have football boots, then yes i do think its unfair

If you are a pole vaulter without a pole, then I strongly advise you don't participate. 😛

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
if the other pole vaulter doesn't have a pole if the other soccer players don't have football boots, then yes i do think its unfair

What if the other pole vaulter could easily get a pole, but chooses not to use one? Anybody who plays correspondence chess on the internet obviously has internet access, and thus also access to databases.