![War has started... [n/t]](/img/uisvg/forum-heading/general.svg){kind=icon}
Originally posted by bbarrI liked you better when your title suited you. Especially the 'Silent' part. People like you breed terrorists like Saddam and Osama. 'Peace' at all costs. Your the ignorant one. Passivity against an agressor gets you nothing but a black eye. You seem to love life yet want to do nothing to help those less fortunate than yourself. Since you think Saddam's the good guy why don't you go over to Iraq and help them with their human shields by being one.
Yep, the war is illegal,....
Originally posted by ChessNutagain, and please listen this time:
I liked you better when your title suited you. Especially the 'Silent' part. People like you breed terrorists like Saddam and Osama. 'Peace' at all costs. Your the ignorant one. Passivity against an agressor gets you nothing but a black eye. You seem to love life yet want to do nothing to help those less fortunate than yourself. Since you think S ...[text shortened]... the good guy why don't you go over to Iraq and help them with their human shields by being one.
"Passivity against an agressor gets you nothing but a black eye" - but who started the war? Who was the international aggressor? America.
"People like you breed terrorists like Saddam and Osama" - no, peace and understanding does not breed terrorists. America supported Saddam for many years and gave him weapons, while he was being even more of a brutal dictator than today. Osama was trained by America to fight the Russians. He hated America because the government cheated him and went back on a deal. The people of the middle east are driven to hatred of the west because of the oppresive economic policies we have, for our own benefit.
"Since you think Saddam's the good guy..." - noone is sayind Saddam is a nice man, or a good leader. We'd all be happy to see him removed from office, and itr would benefit the Iraqi people as long as a better leader took his place. What we disagree with is that the war is illegal, ie. against international law. Just because the US is the biggest player in the field doesn't mean it is allowed to make up the rules to suit itself. Remove Saddam by all means, but don't do it by illegal means that kill his people. That will just increase aniti west feelings.
Imagine this. You are he leader of another Arabic country. You have just seen Iraq invaded and the regeme thrown down by a massivly superior force. What would you do, abandon any plans to become a nuclear power? Or would you pull out all the stops and make sure you had a few nukes ready to deter America picking on you next?
Originally posted by ChessNutI've already addressed the fact that Saddam is a brutal dictator and that I think a case can be made for intervention. I think there were non-military alternatives, involving both the UN and the international criminal court. I've posted about this in another thread. I want Iraqi civilians to be helped, I think that the international community WAS beginning to help the Iraqi people, and if the US took human rights and war crimes seriously, the US would have supported the establishment of an international legal institution with the authority to punish Saddam for crimes against his people. This is an illegal act of aggression, a violation of the UN charter, and in the long term it will not help the Irai people, but make them economically worse off (except for inevitable super-rich autocrats that so our bidding in our client states). The average Iraqi will be worse off ten to twenty years down the road, just like the average folks in Latin America are worse off now then they were when US made intervention in Latin America a fundamental tenet of their foreign policy.
I liked you better when your title suited you. Especially the 'Silent' part. People like you breed terrorists like Saddam and Osama. 'Peace' at all costs. Your the ignorant one. Passivity against an agressor gets you nothing but a black eye. You seem to love life yet want to do nothing to help those less fortunate than yourself. Since you think S ...[text shortened]... the good guy why don't you go over to Iraq and help them with their human shields by being one.
Since you obviously know nothing about the history of US colonialism, nor about the US's current neo-liberal policies, it's really hard to take anything you say on this topic seriously.
So, just to recap (in case you got lost somewhere in the middle of this post):
Saddam: Bad
War: Bad
International Law: Good
One thing I found quite amusing: "Passivity against an agressor gets you nothing but a black eye" True enough, but as the US intelligence community has said repeatedly, there is absolutely no evidence that Iraq had planned any type of aggression against the US, and US aggression actually increases the risk of such an attack. This is a very easy point to grasp, strange that even those of average intelligence can't seem to grasp it.
bbar, if you hate America so much, why don't you go to Canada? You're only about a couple of hours away. I think the Canadians are looking for a few good jedi warriors. After your Daddy finishes helping you pay for your PhD, are you going to Luke Skywalker Academy to get your Galactical studies degree. You may have a high IQ, but you have no substance, no pride...only love for Chewbakka...may you and Luke Skywalker be tied in a love knot happily ever after...
Where is Kirksey957 when you need him? The lone voice of reason so far on the pro-war side of the debate.
Chessnut and Chancremechanic, you've both demonstrated that there's no point in arguing logically with you because you refuse to even consider an alternative point of view. Your resorting to ad hominem arguments is sad and an admission that the strength of your own position in this debate is completely untenable.
As to Chessnut's 'Support the President or Get Out' plea in his personal bio, I would ask him this question: By your logic, shouldn't all of the republican party have left the country during the Clinton Administration? They had no problem not only not supporting the president, but repeatedly undermining every effort of his to get anything done. And now they (and their supporters) have the gall to tell anyone who does not agree with them to leave.
To all: Nazi Germany was not built in a day. Adolf Hitler was a democratically elected leader before he declared himself the absolute ruler of the state. Every day, little things were changed; a little less freedom of speech here, a little more government control there, a slight restriction on jews here, a few more restrictions on gypsies there, and before most people realized what was happening, a small core of committed idealists had seized control of the country and set it down a path that could not be deviated from. History repeats itself. Beware of those who do not tolerate dissent, and those who seek to expand their influence through aggression. No matter how much they say their principles are good, nothing good can come of them.
-mike
Originally posted by legionnaireSo are you trying to say that Bush is Hitler?
To all: Nazi Germany was not built in a day. Adolf Hitler was a democratically elected leader before he declared himself the absolute ruler of the state. Every day, little things were changed; a little less freedom of speech here, a little more government control there, a slight restriction on jews here, a few more restrictions on gypsies there, an ...[text shortened]... No matter how much they say their principles are good, nothing good can come of them.
-mike
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And you forgot me, I'm pro-war
Originally posted by chancremechanicI agree, the murderers are the Iraqi troops that start killing there own citizens
Legionaire, is ad homonim the same as grits?...I'll debate the war logically if you want, but I won't stand for non-Americans like our jedi knight non-warrior calling my comrades murderers...🙄
Originally posted by UncleAdam
So are you trying to say that Bush is Hitler?
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And you forgot me, I'm pro-war
No, while I disagree with much that Bush stands for he has not yet merited a comparison with Adolf Hitler. The point that I was trying to make is that he, along with other members of his administration, are slowly turning the US into something altogether different than what most of its citizens have in mind. In the name of safety, your civil liberties slowly disappear. In the name of security, 'terrorist suspects' are rounded up, taken to Cuba, and tried in closed military tribunals. American citizens of Iraqi descent are being placed under surveillance by our government. Now, we've taken an unprecendented step in our history and started a war of aggression, ignoring the pleas of our allies and the international community to stop and reconsider. We've pulled out of many international treaties, some of which previous US administrations had help organize, in order to follow the agenda of a small group of unelected officials (the Bush cabinet) appointed by a president with a marginal, at best, mandate to govern.
I'm saying that it's time people on both sides of the political divide stopped trying to suppress each other and started standing up for their rights, and for the principles that America claims to represent; liberty, freedom, equality under the law. Because if everyone blindly supports the president, we may one day wake up and find ourselves in a country that we do not want, but have lost the means to contest, like the people living under the third reich did.
Originally posted by chancremechanic
Legionaire, is ad homonim the same as grits?...I'll debate the war logically if you want, but I won't stand for non-Americans like our jedi knight non-warrior calling my comrades murderers...🙄
Like it or not, bbarr is just as American as you are. And by being an American, he has the right to exercise his freedom of speech, even when it is not in agreement with what you, or Donald Rumsfeld, or George W. Bush think. This country has a tradition of having and exercising the right to criticize its leaders and its military. No one wants to see soldiers get killed, but that does not exempt their organizations or their leaders from having to answer to those who have elected them and whose tax dollars pay their salaries and fund their wars. You may not agree with bbarr, and have in fact been encouraged to offer reasonable arguments in support of the war, but don't try to suppress what he says solely because of some misguided loyalty or patriotism.
'Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither.' - Benjamin Franklin
-mike
...........HAVE YOU LOST YOUR DAMN MIND! Or did you just not pay attention in history class? I suppose you would say to me that to question the government is "unamerican". Excuse me? What the hell kind of country did you grow up in, because it wasn't the US! The only true patriot is the one who upholds his countrys principles. In the US that means QUESTIONING AUTHORITY! Or has this point escaped you in your busy schedule of NOT thinking for yourself and shooting the helpless? Hey, I just realized something. If a strong army consists of people like you, then all we need to do is give our career oriented fast food workers guns. I also suppose that all of these free thinkers should move out of your fantasy country as you have suggested because of their "uniamerican" ideas (typo intended). Yet, I suppose you would still maintain this to be the land of the free? Ironic that you are the one most likely to leave soon. Best of luck getting a medal, preferrably a purple one in the shape of a heart. I am certain you will have earned it.
Originally posted by chancremechanicI don't hate the Uniter States, but I do hate the policies of her leaders (there is a difference, though perhaps a dim-wit like you can't grasp it). By the way, I financed my education by pulling graveyard shifts at a 24-hour cafe, so you can fu*k off.
bbar, if you hate America so much, why don't you go to Canada? You're only about a couple of hours away. I think the Canadians are looking for a few good jedi warriors. After your Daddy finishes helping you pay for your PhD, are you going to Luke Skywalker Academy to get your Galactical studies degree. You may have a high IQ, but you have no subst ...[text shortened]... nly love for Chewbakka...may you and Luke Skywalker be tied in a love knot happily ever after...
Originally posted by UncleAdamhaha, thats so funny. And what did america do when those people that were murdered PLEADED for help??? USA turned their back on these people and let them get killed!
I agree, the murderers are the Iraqi troops that start killing there own citizens
And now suddenly its ok to start killing people even tho NO ONE is asking for help?? What kinda crazed thinking is that?
Most people who are for the war are totally blinded by the propaganda bush and his administration keep feeding not to see the bigger picture. How the heck killing these people you claim to help is good for them? So far hundreds of innocent people have died and thousands and hurt and scarred for life. Nice help they are getting...
Originally posted by bezzaemmm, bezza, please tell me u do not live in brittain.
Of course the iraqis are fighting back, wouldn't any self respecting briton do the same if he saw an american in his back yard?
if u do u r B L I N D there is a large america civilian population in brittain. i live 4 miles away from a US army base, they ARE in our backyard, and most people find it comforting, we are also in their backyard, and france's and germany's, it called a transfer and exchange programme.
also i have to laugh at bbar's statement I also respect the conscientious objectors to this illegal, immoral war.
i was wondering, what is a legal and moral war?
the fact that u think this can happen makes me sick, yes war can be legal, but it, will never be moral, killing people will never be moral be me.
however, no matter how smart a person is, the people will be collectivly stupid, we are a selfdestructive race, the only thing we understand is violence
we could hide behind debates and legal issues, but people like saddam who murder their own people, laugh at such things
chancremechanic
Legionaire, is ad homonim the same as grits?...I'll debate the war logically if you want, but I won't stand for non-Americans like our jedi knight non-warrior calling my comrades murderers...
ermm let me think, a life taken by force, yup thats murder, so i guess that would make the troops murderers... but...
without their brave intervention, how long would saddam have been left to murder inocent civilians.
i make no attempt, to disguise murder, but i make the distintion between murdering civilians and military personnel
so america may have just started attacking country's he has branded evil
it could be argued this is wrong, but at least America has the guts to do something, anything about the problems in this world.
oh btw, can anyone tell me a country that didnt not have an evil and violent past?
To our boys in Iraq, good luck and good hunting
nktwild.......thank you! While I disagree with your view, you make some valid and sensible points. I appreciate your sensible observations. I think this thread needed that post. I will ponder your points. To answer your question, I myself do not believe that there is a country in this world that can claim it does not have an evil OR violent past. I can only work to make the future portions of the slate clean. 🙂