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  1. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
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    30 May '16 20:02
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you people, so that those wanting to go over from here to you people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us. Luke 16:26

    This was given in the symbolic Rich man and Lazarus parable, the Rich man representing the religious leaders of Christ's time and Lazarus the Christians.
    How would Lazarus represent the Christians if there is no
    mention that Lazarus accepted Yeshua as the Messiah? From
    context (the whole Luke 16) sounds like those who serve material
    things and, henceforth, forget about the otherworldly matters
    such as, case in point, using some of one's riches to help people
    like Lazarus.


    19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
  2. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
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    30 May '16 20:05
    Originally posted by lemon lime
    he wasn't speaking to people who didn't believe him.
    Is it so? Can you elaborate, please? To whom was Yeshua
    speaking to, then? To those who believed even before hearing?

    Sounds like salvation by clairvoyance.
  3. Standard memberlemon lime
    itiswhatitis
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    30 May '16 20:08
    Originally posted by Seitse
    O.k., I must come clean. I have been offered a business transfer
    on a sex shop. I am surrounded by Christians and wish not to
    disturb my good relations with them.

    If I assume that all clients are married and will use the toys (and
    stuff to be peddled) within the sanctity of marriage and to rejoice
    in the gift of carnal knowledge which the Almighty has bestowed
    upon them... can we say it is a Christian occupation for me to
    have?
    I am surrounded by Christians and wish not to
    disturb my good relations with them.


    Assuming this isn't a hypothetical is this situation limited to your work environment, or are you 'surrounded' by Christians in your personal life as well... such as with family and/or friends of family?

    I'm asking because it's not unusual to feel surrounded by people who don't see eye to eye with you on matters pertaining to religion (or politics). I can certainly relate to that. And it's not always easy to keep your head down and stay under the radar if anyone at work wants to make an issue out of your personal beliefs.

    Keeping business and personal life separate would be ideal, but I know from personal experience how overlap isn't always avoidable. I was let go from a job a few weeks after someone told a (presumably religious) saleman "Everyone at this table is an atheist." I wasn't going to let that pass so I said, "I'm not."

    So yeah, if you want to maintain good relations with anyone (in a business setting) then it's probably best to stick strictly to business.
  4. Standard memberlemon lime
    itiswhatitis
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    30 May '16 20:161 edit
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Is it so? Can you elaborate, please? To whom was Yeshua
    speaking to, then? To those who believed even before hearing?

    Sounds like salvation by clairvoyance.
    He was speaking to people who wanted to hear what he had to say, but obviously not all of the 'listeners' were followers (or potential followers) of his teaching.
  5. SubscriberKegge
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    30 May '16 20:21
    Originally posted by lemon lime
    He was speaking to people who wanted to hear what he had to say, but (especially early on in his ministry) it's a safe bet that not all of the 'listeners' were followers or potential followers of his teaching.
    Correct!

    YouTube
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    30 May '16 20:37
    Originally posted by Seitse
    How would Lazarus represent the Christians if there is no
    mention that Lazarus accepted Yeshua as the Messiah? From
    context (the whole Luke 16) sounds like those who serve material
    things and, henceforth, forget about the otherworldly matters
    such as, case in point, using some of one's riches to help people
    like Lazarus.


    19 “There was a rich man ...[text shortened]... Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
    I agree it has been used to represent the gulf between rich and poor, Rajk has this take on it in the spirituality forum, but i do not agree, for the entire parable is symbolic. Lets look at the content, its simply not possible for someone in some place of burning torment amidst heaps of fiery flames to be have their thirst quenched by someone dipping the tip of their finger in water and cooling another's tongue.

    How would Lazarus represent Christians? if the parable portended some event in the future and the characters were symbolic of certain classes, or sets, call it what you will which Christ appears to make reference to when he states that there would exist a chasm which was mutually exclusive between those represented by Abraham and those by Lazarus.
  7. Standard memberlemon lime
    itiswhatitis
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    30 May '16 21:12
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Look at it this way. For a Christian it is legitimate to own a gun
    factory, same as in the old days a Christian could very well be
    the blacksmith making swords. Right? Of course, the Christian
    businessman wishes his products to end up in the hands of
    people who will use them to protect and serve, but is it
    considered an "unchristian" trade because the g ...[text shortened]... , surrounded
    by Christians, both geographically and in my social, business and
    family circles.
    Do most or all of the Christians you come in contact with belong to a particular denomination? Such as Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Mormon, etc.
    Your situation is difficult for me to imagine, because most of the people in my life (work and family) have not been Christians.
  8. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
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    31 May '16 15:41
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I agree it has been used to represent the gulf between rich and poor, Rajk has this take on it in the spirituality forum, but i do not agree, for the entire parable is symbolic. Lets look at the content, its simply not possible for someone in some place of burning torment amidst heaps of fiery flames to be have their thirst quenched by someone dippin ...[text shortened]... a chasm which was mutually exclusive between those represented by Abraham and those by Lazarus.
    But there were no Christians proper then, as only with the crucifixion of Yeshua
    the Messiah it came to be that sola fide materializes. Hey, the latter
    is the main doctrine separating Protestantism from Catholicism.

    Not kidding here. Under sola fide, HaShem grants pardon to guilty sinners
    through faith alone, excluding works, but the basis is the life, death and
    resurrection
    of the Son. It follows, then, that the Messiah not being crucified
    and resurrected yet, the parable speaks not of a theological chasm but a
    world still under the Law.

    Not to be pedantic, but the fault I see in Christians is how little they know
    about (and regard) the Tanakh.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    31 May '16 20:21
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I agree it has been used to represent the gulf between rich and poor, Rajk has this take on it in the spirituality forum, but i do not agree, for the entire parable is symbolic. Lets look at the content, its simply not possible for someone in some place of burning torment amidst heaps of fiery flames to be have their thirst quenched by someone dippin ...[text shortened]... a chasm which was mutually exclusive between those represented by Abraham and those by Lazarus.
    Symbolic? Like your morality? Do you know a lot about keeping up appearances while wallowing in your own hypocrisy?? I suspect you do.
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    31 May '16 21:06
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Symbolic? Like your morality? Do you know a lot about keeping up appearances while wallowing in your own hypocrisy?? I suspect you do.
    Is there no issue which you do not gaze through the narrow moral lens of your own making? Is it really the pinnacle of your understanding, every issue , every post, every idea, subject to your thin Halo which spins above your head resonating in time with your anger?

    Seitse raised an interesting subject, why must you pollute it ? Who are you to judge the house servant of another the apostle asks? Stop judging the Christ appeals, is it all completely lost on you ?
  11. trifling fingerprint
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    31 May '16 21:07
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Is there no issue which you do not gaze through the narrow moral lens of your own making? Is it really the pinnacle of your understanding, every issue , every post, every idea, subject to your thin Halo which spins above your head resonating in time with your anger?

    Seitse raised an interesting subject, why must you pollute it ? Who are you to ...[text shortened]... of another the apostle asks? Stop judging the Christ appeals, is it all completely lost on you ?
    If you had a tail, it would be twitching a lot right now.
  12. Account suspended
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    31 May '16 21:08
    Originally posted by Seitse
    But there were no Christians proper then, as only with the crucifixion of Yeshua
    the Messiah it came to be that sola fide materializes. Hey, the latter
    is the main doctrine separating Protestantism from Catholicism.

    Not kidding here. Under sola fide, HaShem grants pardon to guilty sinners
    through faith alone, excluding works, but the basi ...[text shortened]... antic, but the fault I see in Christians is how little they know
    about (and regard) the Tanakh.
    I think the issue comes to a head in Pentecost when the promised Holy spirit is given to the disciples and God signifies his acceptance of the new Christian congregation.
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    31 May '16 21:11
    Originally posted by divegeester
    If you had a tail, it would be twitching a lot right now.
    and if you put forth a little effort you might contribute something with content, once in a while. Come on geester, you can do it. I believe in you man!
  14. SubscriberSuzianne
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    02 Jun '16 11:41
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Please be quiet, your ignorance resounds out into the universe like a clashing symbol and is spoiling the ambience of this place.
    Funny, I was just thinking the same about you.
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    02 Jun '16 21:53
    Originally posted by Seitse
    So, let's say I am a Christian and I want to work
    as a stripper or own a weed dispensary. Is it o.k.?

    I mean, there must be a list of occupations or
    businesses which are kosher, right? Anyone
    providing the link to such list will be rewarded with
    mucho blessing.

    As-Salaam-Alaikum.
    If you were a Christian you'd know.
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