Originally posted by KorchOne more time:
I`ll repeat my question to eldragonfly which he ignored before:
[b]Can you name at least one CC chess site (like RHP) where using of books and databases is forbidden? Can you name at least one CC federation which have forbidden using of books and databases?[/b]
Using books and databases is not the same as thinking or using your brain.
This idea of playing online chess using databases and books would most likely artificially boost someones online rating as compared to a real world rating. In any event this "advantage" would not translate to OTB and tournament play.
there is no skill involved in accessing a database and relying upon chessbooks to help someone make moves in a chess game.
Even a child can figure out that relying upon databases and books is not the real thing.
You are just attempting to smear the lines between cc and OTB to justify using databases and books to help your play, when there is no real skill involved.
No one here has addressed this point, obviously all this talk about databases and chess books and impoving skills is bogus and unqualified.
Uh huh. You have only shown that the rather far-fetched idea that correspondence chess means that databases and chessbooks use is acceptable is rather tenuous. And you have altogether avoided the question of turn-based chess sites that promote or actively encourage the idea of using databases and chessbooks to help players make moves. If that was the case you would think that russ would put a rather promiment link to his gamesexplorer on the front page instead of burying the link in his site. In fact it is not even on the site map.
Oh that's sure reliable, quoting from wikipedia. it should be obvious that "almost universally accepted" means can't be prevented. And "are often allowed" does not equal always allowed, i am quoting your own source. And i don't care what it says in the TOS, using a chess aid to see several plies deep into a position is cheating, you would never do that i bases and chessbooks to make their next move, it is a pitfall that one must be wary of.
But this still leads to my second point - i am still waiting for reliable proof that all online turn based chess sites were created with the idea of using databases and chess books in mind, and openly encourage and promote this idea.
Originally posted by eldragonflyUsing books and DB may help you avoid traps and come out of the opening better than you otherwise would but sooner or later you leave the book and then you have to rely on your own skill, both in the middle game and the end game. If you don't have that skill your position will deteriorate and you will eventually lose. If you do have that skill books and DBs can help you get the sort of position you prefer and may help your rating to the extent of 100-200 points.
One more time:
Using books and databases is not the same as thinking or using your brain.
This idea of playing online chess using databases and books would most likely artificially boost someones online rating as compared to a real world rating. In any event this "advantage" would not translate to OTB and tournament play.
there is no skill invo ...[text shortened]... of using databases and chess books in mind, and openly encourage and promote this idea.
I have from time to time played on another chess site and have moves quickly and avoided the use of books and DBs and my rating there is virtually the same as here which proves that books and DBs offer no instant miraculous cure.
A lot of top players here have tried to give you intelligent replies but you insist and repeating yourself and producing no evidence what so ever to support your contention. I conclude that actually your understanding of the game is superficial which explains why you fail to grasp the concepts and think book give some miraculous advantage.
Originally posted by eldragonflyRHP is CC chess site. Even a child can figure it out. But you obviously can`t.
One more time:
Using books and databases is not the same as thinking or using your brain.
This idea of playing online chess using databases and books would most likely artificially boost someones online rating as compared to a real world rating. In any event this "advantage" would not translate to OTB and tournament play.
there is no skill invo of using databases and chess books in mind, and openly encourage and promote this idea.
If you want to play with opponents which does not use book during the game you may go to online chess sites like Playchess. And there you will be able to understand that even without using of books most players will be able to beat you.
And statement "databases and books does not improve your skills" is the most absurd I have ever heard from stupid patzers like you.
Originally posted by KorchI generally try to refrain using the forums of one site to discuss other sites. Several sites prohibit the discussion of competitive sites in their forums. RHP is more open than the others. But, this question demands some outside reference.
I`ll repeat my question to eldragonfly which he ignored before:
[b]Can you name at least one CC chess site (like RHP) where using of books and databases is forbidden? Can you name at least one CC federation which have forbidden using of books and databases?[/b]
I have a vague recollection of some ambiguity whether databases were permitted at http://www.chesshere.com/ when I started playing there a few years ago. The point was clarified quickly when the site owner was pressed, and it was confirmed that they are permitted.
http://www.chessworld.net/ actively promotes their use. To wit, under the menu item "play better":
"Why Chessworld?...
Point 4: Time to play quality moves- (and less blunders!)
You have time to think and try out and research your moves. Referring to books, playing and testing variations on a board (or using the ChessWorld.net analysis board if you are a full member) is positively encouraged. The idea is to play the best possible moves, and leverage the fact that you have time to do research. Your moves are of a much higher quality than fast chess games, because you have time to think. This means that when you win, you can generally be much prouder of that win that a blitz game. The opponent generally had time to find good defence, but you still beat him! It also means you will be learning from your games. You may pick up lots of opening theory or gain a much greater understanding of positions resulting from the opening. This may in turn also enhance your over the board play and blitz chess :-)"
Actually, database use doesn't always boost a player's rating. To a weak player, it can actually be counter productive.
For example, you might follow a game between a couple of grandmasters where they know a number of lines from a given position, but you only see one line (in that game). You blindly follow that line, not knowing the various responses that either of those grandmasters would have played if your opponent were to deviate. A player online could deviate any time, which you don't know what the grandmaster would have played (which could have been winning) if they were to go down that same line. You play on by your own ability, not knowing what tactical plans the grandmasters had in mind, weaking your position very quickly and then losing.
If this weaker player decided not to blindly follow this game, he/she could have stood a better chance, because they would have (based on their ability) had a better plan.
However, a skilled player can use a database to their advantage, and help them make better plans. This can help them spot patterns for later games, hence improving their overall play.
Please stop. If you keep responding to his posts he will not stop. He is desperate for attention. Too bad he does not spend as much energy on trying to improve his chess dam he would be good. And this is not the first time he has dwelled on this topic. Just stop posting on this thread and let him post to himself. Trust me trying to explain to him how the use of databases and books can help improve ones play and is not cheating is pointless.
Originally posted by eldragonflyAs your comments in this thread demonstrate that your brain is disengaged while reading, I can see that you believe you have a point. However, most of us--certainly those who are proficient readers--understand that any use of books on any topic for any purpose requires cognition. Even so, it is possible to slavishly follow a database in one's games here without using one's sense. But, such a practice more often proves self-destructive than conferring any benefits. There is no reason to consider suicidal behaviors to be a form of cheating, particularly when they are well within the rules.
One more time:
Using books and databases is not the same as thinking or using your brain.
Originally posted by WulebgrGameknot has a link to a DB. Just click on the link and you are immediately shown the DB at your current position with stats on the merits of each move.
I generally try to refrain using the forums of one site to discuss other sites. Several sites prohibit the discussion of competitive sites in their forums. RHP is more open than the others. But, this question demands some outside reference.
I have a vague recollection of some ambiguity whether databases were permitted at http://www.chesshere.com/ when I s ...[text shortened]... rom the opening. This may in turn also enhance your over the board play and blitz chess :-)"
Responding to DF on Pg 11, quote was being buggy
You're just like wormwood, on a high horse with others to put down.
So lets see, either:
a) You're acting pretentious and just want to put me down and don't actually read what i say
or
b) You're an idiot savant and just happen to be good at chess
Because if you've read a thing you would know I support books/DB just not in direct relation to ongoing games. In parallel is OK, separate is OK, before is OK, after is OK, but during in direct relation to how you should move (esp. concerning opening lines) is essentially using an engine/hivemind.
This has barely been addressed because anything I say has been constantly obscured by eldragonfly being spastic and all the 'high' players wanting to defend themselves on a point where we agree.
The small address is that "eventually you will leave the book" but that doesn't change the fact if you are using a opening specific hivemind/engine created book then you are not actually playing chess, you are being directed for those first X moves. It ceases to be help, but direction.
Maybe you'll understand it this time and not try to misrepresent and deprecate me. I'm not 60 like you DF, I'm learning, slowly so give me a break and listen to my words. Thats something I have developed so far in my life, chess I'm working on. oh and I AM NOT ELDRAGONFLY, so don't treat me like you are treating him (and I might just argue he deserves to be treated).
Originally posted by tamuziyou claim I have insulted people, which I never did. I've set you straight both in public and in PMs you initiated, but you continue iterating your paranoid claims nevertheless. you're such a clown.
Responding to DF on Pg 11, quote was being buggy
You're just like wormwood, on a high horse with others to put down.
So lets see, either:
a) You're acting pretentious and just want to put me down and don't actually read what i say
or
b) You're an idiot savant and just happen to be good at chess
Because if you've read a thing you would know I suppo ...[text shortened]... me like you are treating him (and I might just argue he deserves to be treated).