Originally posted by RahimKNo. Do not stop there, there's no secrets with the KG on this site, or in the world for that matter. Explain how these results prove anything. These are actually the results that I would expect. If you aren't going to back up your statement then don't bother making it. And what exactly could you possibly "give away" that the KG player's on this site haven't?
Just as I expected! You number make sense to me now that I see what your opponents were playing.
You gotta know the openings you play. I don't want to give anything away so I will stop there 🙂
Originally posted by cmsMasterEveryone has their secrets and ideas. You can't give everything up. Otherwise you would never win. A teacher never teaches his student everything 🙂
No. Do not stop there, there's no secrets with the KG on this site, or in the world for that matter. Explain how these results prove anything. These are actually the results that I would expect. If you aren't going to back up your statement then don't bother making it. And what exactly could you possibly "give away" that the KG player's on this site haven't?
I'm just saying that the stats make more sense to me. I don't think white does great in the KG. Hence you don't see it that often In top level play compared to other openings.
This applies to all openings. Lets just take a dumb opening example. You are white.
1.e4 g5 Say there are 10 games and white wins 6 of them, 60%.
Now just as an example say the games went.
1.e4 g5 2.d4 f6 3.Qh5# 6 games like this, 6 white wins.
1.e4 g5 2.d4 Bg7 or some other moves, 4 games like this and 4 loses for white.
So 1.e4 g5 is 60% white wins correct?
But that's only because black is playing bad moves. If they played something besides 2...f6 after 2.d4 that number could be lower..
So for this example after 1.e4 g5 2.d4 anything else white is 0% in 4 games.
Just an example but that's basically it, it depends on the remaining moves.
Originally posted by RahimKThat whole explanation didn't prove anything. It works the same for every opening, and the only way you could find out which opening is actually best would be to play a perfect move every move. Which, of course, is impossibe.
Everyone has their secrets and ideas. You can't give everything up. Otherwise you would never win. A teacher never teaches his student everything 🙂
I'm just saying that the stats make more sense to me. I don't think white does great in the KG. Hence you don't see it that often In top level play compared to other openings.
This applies to all openings. ...[text shortened]... in 4 games.
Just an example but that's basically it, it depends on the remaining moves.
The secrets thing doesn't make sense either. If secret moves were so important then why would anybody write opening books to help people improve? And why would people like Fischer write articles about moves that thought busted the KG?
Anyhow, if you actually think that you know of some "secret" be my guest and PM it to me. I'll bet it's got plenty of theory and is very well known.
Originally posted by cmsMasterBTW: I'd just like to point out, that everyone seems to be saying that these results are inconclusive because people blunder. But why isn't anybody posting their own results showing high percentages with the Ruy Lopez to prove that it's just as strong?
That whole explanation didn't prove anything. It works the same for every opening, and the only way you could find out which opening is actually best would be to play a perfect move every move. Which, of course, is impossibe.
The secrets thing doesn't make sense either. If secret moves were so important then why would anybody write opening books to h ...[text shortened]... " be my guest and PM it to me. I'll bet it's got plenty of theory and is very well known.
1 edit
Originally posted by cmsMasterSure it did! Yes white wins 60% of the game after 1.e4 g5 in my example.
That whole explanation didn't prove anything. It works the same for every opening, and the only way you could find out which opening is actually best would be to play a perfect move every move. Which, of course, is impossibe.
The secrets thing doesn't make sense either. If secret moves were so important then why would anybody write opening books to h " be my guest and PM it to me. I'll bet it's got plenty of theory and is very well known.
That doesn't mean much to me. It depends which specific varaition you enter into before such number are useful to me at least.
Yes it works for every opening. I was just giving an example.
As for secrets. It's not a secret. Lots of people know it. Those number don't mean much to me. If black plays properly I believe white doesn't get much and that number 87% or whatever it was would be much lower then that.
As a player from our club said:
Crappy openings lead to crappy results 🙂
If your opponents don't know the opening and play wrong moves that doesn't mean that opening is better then another opening which has a lower winning percentage.
Originally posted by cmsMasterNobody liked my awesome analysis?
I did some quick research and found that in many lines black reaches equality or better. Unfortunately for black "most" lines isn't the same as "all" lines. After a quick glance I quite enjoyed the following line for white (Which I think offers a small edge)
1.e4 e5
2.f4 Qh4
3.g3 (Practically forced) Qe7
4.fxe5 - Also possible here is the wild {4.N ...[text shortened]... g black against the KG this is not the position in which I would like to find myself.
Oh well, I actually really enjoyed it and I learned which line to play against this pesky defense.
🙂
Originally posted by RahimKBTW: Bedlam explains why these percentages are useful on page 1. I don't see the point in repeating what he said.
Sure it did! Yes white wins 60% of the game after 1.e4 g5 in my example.
That doesn't mean much to me. It depends which specific varaition you enter into before such number are useful to me at least.
Yes it works for every opening. I was just giving an example.
As for secrets. It's not a secret. Lots of people know it. Those number don't mean much t ...[text shortened]... n't mean that opening is better then another opening which has a lower winning percentage.
Originally posted by cmsMaster1. I'm not going through my games one by one. I can import them from Rhp into fritz and let it do that for me but I don't care much about it. Those numbers don't mean anything to me.
The only master I talk to would be quite upset by this opening (in general), I think.
Hey Rahim, on RHP, what do you score with the Ruy Lopez? It must be pretty good, because you only have 10 losses...
2.Those 10 losses were when I first started here. I was playing like garabage, then I started playing seriously like I do in OTB and hence the rise. My last lost which isn't displayed I believe was to someone 2100+, 300+ point over in the caro kann which I was learning and testing out different lines. He was nice enough to play the caro verse me.
3.Relavent to point 1. When you use an opening database to choose your moves, do you only go by the % for each side? Or do you consider other factors also?
Yes # of games and % are important but that is not enough. At least for me it's not. That's what i'm trying to explain. So what if in KG you get 87%. That's only because most of the time black doesn't know what he is doing and doesn't play the best moves.
1 edit
Originally posted by RahimKI'm currently scoring more like 100% with the KG 😛. And it's because I know the KG better than my opponents - even if they think they know what they're doing. There was one instance when I got caught off guard against the Cunningham Defense (still in progress) and I'm currently getting mopped across the floor. The position was unfamiliar to me (I tried a crazy, sharp line, 4.Bc4, which is sound) and wasn't able to handle the new positions properly. I'm still learning how to play against that defense (although I mainly play the Bishop Gambit Variation now anyways....) but the point is clear. Unfamiliarity leads to poor positions.
1. I'm not going through my games one by one. I can import them from Rhp into fritz and let it do that for me but I don't care much about it. Those numbers don't mean anything to me.
2.Those 10 losses were when I first started here. I was playing like garabage, then I started playing seriously like I do in OTB and hence the rise. My last lost which isn't d most of the time black doesn't know what he is doing and doesn't play the best moves.
BTW:No matter the reason for our great scores with the KG it still proves that it's an extremely effective weapon at the club level.
Originally posted by cmsMasterUh huh.
I'm currently scoring more like 100% with the KG 😛. And it's because I know the KG better than my opponents - even if they think they know what they're doing. There was one instance when I got caught off guard against the Cunningham Defense (still in progress) and I'm currently getting mopped across the floor. The position was unfamiliar to me (I tried ...[text shortened]... es with the KG it still proves that it's an extremely effective weapon at the club level.
Same question to you also then.
How many KG games have you completed so far ?
How many of them went like this:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3?
And finally after 3.Nf3 __which responses did you face and how many times?
Originally posted by RahimKI don't feel like looking those stats up, because they're pretty much useless. If you want to know how many seemed to know what they were doing...hm, a few, most played "playable" defenses, but my opening knowledge of the KG is generally superior to that of my opponents.
Uh huh.
Same question to you also then.
How many KG games have you completed so far ?
How many of them went like this:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3?
And finally after 3.Nf3 __which responses did you face and how many times?
- Joined
- 21 Apr 06
- Moves
- 4211
1 edit
Originally posted by RahimKSimon Webb covers this in his book Chess for Tigers. Basicly saying you should do your opening theory results percentages and then also look at/evaluate the opening, middle game and endgame positions separately so you would end up something like........
Everyone has their secrets and ideas. You can't give everything up. Otherwise you would never win. A teacher never teaches his student everything 🙂
I'm just saying that the stats make more sense to me. I don't think white does great in the KG. Hence you don't see it that often In top level play compared to other openings.
This applies to all openings. in 4 games.
Just an example but that's basically it, it depends on the remaining moves.
Kings Gambit
P20 W8 D7 L5
Opening
+7 =6 -7
Middle game
+10 =5 -5
Endgame (if you reached it 🙂 )
+4 =2 -1
And so on for all your openings. Naturally the games should be taken from competetive chess to avoid the 1.e4 g5 example. Anyway at the end of it you can not only start to see your weaker/stronger openings but at which points of the resulting play of those openings you are weaker/stronger at.
This is the position that User 186879 recommend is good for black.
I must admit that against my better judgement it has somne merit. Both Nf3 and Bc6 now fail
e.g. 4. Nf3 .. eXf, 5. gXf .. QXe4+, 6. Qe2; or
4. Bc4 .. eXf, 5. Nc3 .. fXg, 6. hXg
both of which are better for black.
Playable moves are 4. fXe which I have played in our game, 4. d3, 4. Nc3 and 4. Qe2. Please feel free to comment on the lines other than the one I have played. My gut feeling is this cannot be good for black.