Most effective opening

Originally posted by cmsMaster
I don't feel like looking those stats up, because they're pretty much useless. If you want to know how many seemed to know what they were doing...hm, a few, most played "playable" defenses, but my opening knowledge of the KG is generally superior to that of my opponents.

They are useless. The are certain lines in openings which lead to better results then others.

Say in the Ruy, White does okay, wins or draws most of the time. But if Black is allowed to go into the Marshall then it equal basically. I'm just using this as an example, it might not be true.

so lets look at this:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer?node=187328&move=8.5&moves=e4.e5.Nf3.Nc6.Bb5.a6.Ba4.Nf6.O-O.Be7.Re1.b5.Bb3.O-O.c3&nodes=21720.21721.21722.21723.21724.21725.21726.34841.34842.187048.187049.187050.187051.187202.187328

See those stats:

if 8...d6 white has an advantage but with 8...d5 its basically equal.

Now from 1.e4 e5 White has 38.1 % wins vs 28.1 % wins for black.
So you think to you self, wow this is a good opening for white. You play this opening and black plays the marshall and suddendly it's equal almost.

% wins don't mean much by themselves. You have to look at certain variations within those openings.

So scoring 100% or 87 % with KG doesn't mean nothing.

A 1900 player might play black differently and lose then a 1800 player who might win. It's the actual opening moves which count also!!

Game 2476497

Following 4. .. d6 I played 5. eXd as I could find nothing better.

However Nc3. Nf3, Bc4 and d4 all seem playable as well as Bb5. Comments on these alternatives anyone? Did I play the wrong move?

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Following 4. .. d6 I played 5. eXd as I could find nothing better.

However Nc3. Nf3, Bc4 and d4 all seem playable as well as Bb5. Comments on these alternatives anyone? Did I play the wrong move?

4.Nc3 is Gallaghers suggestion but it seems black gets quite a bit of fun in this line.

4.Bg2 is playable which black would probably meet with h5

4.d3 is considered by theory to be the best move, white shouldnt have any trouble.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Following 4. .. d6 I played 5. eXd as I could find nothing better.

However Nc3. Nf3, Bc4 and d4 all seem playable as well as Bb5. Comments on these alternatives anyone? Did I play the wrong move?

I guess you didn't see my opening analysis (two pages back). The move you played I gave a "?" annotation. Best here is 5.Nc3! (Again, my own annotation) where white gets a strong game. As I said in the analysis post black can now equalize practically by force. 5...Qxe4+ 6.Qe2 Qxe2+ 7.Nxe2 Bxd6 =

I'm sad that you missed my analysis...or chose to ignore it 🙁.

Originally posted by Bedlam
4.Nc3 is Gallaghers suggestion but it seems black gets quite a bit of fun in this line.

4.Bg2 is playable which black would probably meet with h5

4.d3 is considered by theory to be the best move, white shouldnt have any trouble.

Really Nc3 is fun for black?

Maybe I should get rid of that "!" then...

Also you didn't mention 5.d4!?. Which to me looks interesting for white.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
Really Nc3 is fun for black?

Maybe I should get rid of that "!" then...

Also you didn't mention 5.d4!?. Which to me looks interesting for white.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. Nc3 exf4 5. d4 fxg3 6.
Bf4 Nf6 7. Qe2 c6 8. e5 Nd5 9. Nxd5 cxd5 Werner - Barkhagen

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. Nc3 exf4 5. d4 fxg3 6.
hxg3 d5 7. Bf4 c6 8. Qe2 Be6 9. O-O-O Nf6 10. Bg5 Gallagher - Berezovsky 1993


The openings look intresting but d3 looks more solid. 4.Qf3 doesnt look like a bad try either.

For me the difference between Nc3 and d3 is that in the Nc3 lines blacks queen isnt too badly placed on e7 while its not the square id put the queen on it might turn out to be usefull there.. After d3 on the other hand the black queen on seems pointless and a move like d5 trying to take advantage of blacks queen placing seem to give white the edge.

Originally posted by Bedlam
1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. Nc3 exf4 5. d4 fxg3 6.
Bf4 Nf6 7. Qe2 c6 8. e5 Nd5 9. Nxd5 cxd5 Werner - Barkhagen

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. Nc3 exf4 5. d4 fxg3 6.
hxg3 d5 7. Bf4 c6 8. Qe2 Be6 9. O-O-O Nf6 10. Bg5 Gallagher - Berezovsky 1993


The openings look intresting but d3 looks more solid. 4.Qf3 doesnt look like a bad try either.

F ...[text shortened]... and a move like d5 trying to take advantage of blacks queen placing seem to give white the edge.

Ah wrong line Bedlam. I was referring to the 4.fxe4 line, which I feel creates the most problems for black. Dragon asked if 5.exd6 is best, not if 4.fxe5 is best.

EDIT: Also, I had a quick sentence on 4.Nc3. Apparently it's very sharp, but offers no solid advantage for white. So I agree with you on that point.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
Ah wrong line Bedlam. I was referring to the 4.exf4 line, which I feel creates the most problems for black. Dragon asked if 5.exd6 is best, not if 4.fxe5 is best.

BTW: Your post somehow messed up this page's format.

Not that it's your fault. 😀

Originally posted by cmsMaster
BTW: Your post somehow messed up this page's format.

Not that it's your fault. 😀

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. fxe5 d6 5. exd6 Qxe4+ 6. Qe2 Qxe2+ 7. Nxe2 Bxd6 8. Bg2




This position looks like a slight edge for white.


1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. fxe5 d6 5. exd6 Qxe4+ 6. Qe2 Qxe2+ 7. Nxe2
Bxd6 8. Bg2 h5 9. Nbc3 c6 10. Ne4 Be7 11. d4 Nf6 12. Nxf6+ Bxf6 13. Bf4 Bg4 14.
c3 Nd7 15. h3 Be6 16. O-O O-O-O 17. b3 Nb6 18. Rf2 Rhe8 19. Rc1 Bd5 20. Bf1(it might look odd but black has a lot of pieces that can use the d5 square) Be4
21. h4 Rd5 22. Bd2 Rd6 23. Nf4 g6 24. Re1 Bg7 25. Nd3 f5 26. Nc5 Nd7 27. Nxe4
fxe4 28. Rf7 Bf6 29. Bh3 Re7 30. Rxe7 Bxe7 31. Rxe4 Kd8 32. Bf4.
Grabarczyk - Jedryczka 2004

Just an example of how the opening could go. White is around 2450-2500 and black is 2300.

Originally posted by Bedlam
1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. fxe5 d6 5. exd6 Qxe4+ 6. Qe2 Qxe2+ 7. Nxe2 Bxd6 8. Bg2


[fen]rnb1k1nr/ppp2ppp/3b4/8/8/6P1/PPPPN1BP/RNB1K2R b KQkq - 0 8[/fen]

This position looks like a slight edge for white.


1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. fxe5 d6 5. exd6 Qxe4+ 6. Qe2 Qxe2+ 7. Nxe2
Bxd6 8. Bg2 h5 9. Nbc3 c6 10. Ne4 Be7 11. d4 Nf6 12. Nxf6+ Bxf6 ...[text shortened]... 004

Just an example of how the opening could go. White is around 2450-2500 and black is 2300.

Hm, I consider it quite equal. You are more of an expert with the KG than I though, so I trust your opinion. However doesn't the other line that I posted look like MUCH more fun for white? If you're too lazy to look back and find it (Like I might be in your shoes..if it weren't regarding the KG) here it is...

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Qh4+ 3.g3 Qe7 4.exd5 d6 5.Nc3 dxe5 - white to move.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
Hm, I consider it quite equal. You are more of an expert with the KG than I though, so I trust your opinion. However doesn't the other line that I posted look like MUCH more fun for white? If you're too lazy to look back and find it (Like I might be in your shoes..if it weren't regarding the KG) here it is...

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Qh4+ 3.g3 Qe7 4.exd5 d6 5.Nc3 dxe5 - white to move.

White should get better central control in the position. Ok far from enough for a win but it should provide an edge.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. fxe5 d6 5. Nc3 dxe5 black gets to contest the center.

6.Nf3 Nf6 7. Bc4 Nc6 8. d3 Bg4. Black looks comfortable here. If white goes 0-0 at any point in the game black is sure to go 0-0-0 h5-h4 etc.

Originally posted by Bedlam
White should get better central control in the position. Ok far from enough for a win but it should provide an edge.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. fxe5 d6 5. Nc3 dxe5 black gets to contest the center.

6.Nf3 Nf6 7. Bc4 Nc6 8. d3 Bg4. Black looks comfortable here. If white goes 0-0 at any point in the game black is sure to go 0-0-0 h5-h4 etc.

What if 6.Nd5?

Hm, I think you're right, 4.d3 does look best for white. I have to admit, this Qh4 check line is remarkably tough to crack. Although I still don't think it's black's best option. 4.d3 seems pretty strong for white, and 4.Nc3 looks quite playable as well.

Hm, Ok so I played this 4.d3 line out against Fritz 9. Here's what Fritz came up with...

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Qh4+ 3.g3 Qe7 4.d3 Nf6 5.Nc3 exf4 6.Bxf4 Nc6 7.Qd2 d6

Where white has the idea of O-O-O and a massive kingside assault. Fritz scores it .69 (A very nice edge for white there). I know that engines are useless with openings however, and this is out of Fritz's book. So is this the line that the game is supposed to follow and has Fritz scored this correctly?

Originally posted by cmsMaster
What if 6.Nd5?

Hm, I think you're right, 4.d3 does look best for white. I have to admit, this Qh4 check line is remarkably tough to crack. Although I still don't think it's black's best option. 4.d3 seems pretty strong for white, and 4.Nc3 looks quite playable as well.

Hm, Ok so I played this 4.d3 line out against Fritz 9. Here's what Fritz came ...[text shortened]... is this the line that the game is supposed to follow and has Fritz scored this correctly?

Oh BTW:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer?node=2403220&move=3&moves=e4.e5.f4.Qh4%2B&nodes=21720.21721.101115.2403220

Originally posted by cmsMaster
Oh BTW:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer?node=2403220&move=3&moves=e4.e5.f4.Qh4%2B&nodes=21720.21721.101115.2403220

???

Looks liek a bad move.

Originally posted by RahimK
???

Looks liek a bad move.

It shows white scores 50% to black's 30%. Meaning white dominates.