Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 08 Nov '08 21:21 / 1 edit
    This is a continuation of Thread 103325.
    PAWN RIOT has just submitted 14. g4, leading to the following position:



    I will include a quote from the message here

    "Nothing much to think about im still in my opening prep"

    I am beginning to feel like our days are numbered.

    Please give careful consideration before quickly casting a vote.
    I encourage you to look over the analysis given in previous moves.
    This is not enough though. I think you should also set up a board and try to come up with some other ideas as well.
    I, personally, do not believe in the exchange sac given in early analysis. Likewise, I find it really hard to believe that white can force a win this early. I am going to take a good look at the position and try to come up with something. I suggest you do the same.

    Good Luck ... We are going to need it.
  2. 08 Nov '08 21:26
    RESIGN!
  3. 08 Nov '08 21:51 / 2 edits
    This is not a vote or a suggestion.

    The first move I am looking at is 14. ... Bxg4.

    This may be a little extreme but it does really put a halt to white's play.

    I can't find a good response to 15.fxg4 Nxg4 16.h3 (16.Rdg1? Nxe3 and Bxd4) Ne5 (maybe something else is better) 17.Bh6 ... oh wait 17. ... Rxd4.

    I still don't trust this 100% for black, however.
    It's just an interesting (possibly new) variation to take a peak at.

    I should mention that I have seen this kind of sacrifice in the dragon before. There aren't concrete variations where black gets the material back or obvious compensation. It's usually just a freedom of pieces/good central control kind of compensation.
  4. 08 Nov '08 22:05
    Launch the queen-side pawns.
  5. 08 Nov '08 22:23 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by EmLasker
    RESIGN!
    you woosies, do you not know that you are in the company of Scotsmen who have never fled before a flag of St George in their lives, and do not intend to start now, so then take courage, we also are within the realms of our opening preparation and this position is not knew or never before envisioned, so if we have moves for consideration, let them see the light of day that we assess their merits and disadvantages, but as for this sassenach talk, who can stand it! so for the honour of the last living dragon, take courage!
  6. 08 Nov '08 22:29
    I believe b5 is supposed to be an acceptable move for black here. I will check up on my old games and see if I am right, as I am sure I have had this position before.
  7. 08 Nov '08 22:45
    i looked at e5 and it seemed like a very bad idea.

    it made the open file (d) pawn a backwards one and white could put his knights on b5 putting pressure with his doubled major pieces and knight or even play Nf5 if he's a crack addict.

    about good moves, no ideas.
  8. 08 Nov '08 22:56
    I agree that e5 is a bad idea; it just unnecessarily weakens d6 and d5. I liked the aforementioned ...b5- perhaps Qa5 isn't too bad either
  9. 08 Nov '08 23:05
    Originally posted by Tyrannosauruschex
    I believe b5 is supposed to be an acceptable move for black here. I will check up on my old games and see if I am right, as I am sure I have had this position before.
    b5 surely looks strange, but it might of course be theory
    Qc7 this looks much more natural to me and that would be my move
  10. 08 Nov '08 23:26 / 1 edit


    For several years considered the best and enough to neutralize 12.Kb1. However, modern practice has proved that things are not easy for Black and he faces real difficulties in this line.

    13.Bxc4 Rxc4 14.g4!

    After 14.g4 Black has a lot of ways to continue. The main directions are:

    A. 14...Qc7 provokes 15.g5 Nh5 16.Nd5, when the Black queen must retreat to d8. In spite of being played by Dragon experts Tiviakov and Alterman, this looks pretty dubious and in fact their results have been very bad in this variation. After 16...Qd8 17.Ne2 Be6 White's strongest continuation is probably simply to take on a7. Black has failed to prove any compensation in practice, see Bologan,V - Chatalbashev,B 1-0. Also possible is 18.Ng3 Bxd5 19.Qxd5 Qc7 20.Nxh5 gxh5 21.c3, with a slight advantage.

    B. 14...Qa5 has little independent value. White must not play 15.Nd5?! Qxd2 16.Nxe7+ Kh8 17.Rxd2 Re8 with advantage for Black, but first 15.g5 Nh5 16.Nd5. Then Black is forced to play 16...Qd8, thus transposing into Variation Above (14...Qc7).
    White also has a good additional possibility 15.Nb3. After 15...Qa6 both 16.e5 and 16.Bh6 give White better prospects, see Slobodjan,R - Malakhov,V 0-1 and Kaiumov,D - Solovjov,S 1-0.

    C. 14...Qb8 leaves White with a wide choice of continuations, with the advantage in most cases, after 15.b3, 15.g5 or 15.h4.

    D. 14...Re8 15.h4 is reminiscent of the lines starting with 12...Re8 B78 - 12.Kb1 Re8, where the quick ...Nc4 is not the best option for Black.

    E. 14...b5 is often a typical reaction after g4. However, here the pawn f3 is not attacked by the knight from e5 and White can take on b5.The immediate 15.Ndxb5 allows Black to bring his king's rook to the queenside quickly with 15...Qb8 16.Nd4 Rfc8, with compensation, see Oim,T - Nesis,G 0-1. White has the much stronger 15.b3!, first met in Topalov,V - Tiviakov,S ½-½. The idea is that Black must retreat the rook back to c8, thus breaking the coordination of pieces on the back rank, since 15...Rc5 16.Ne6! is just losing for Black (for instance Tiviakov,S - Komljenovic,D 1-0). In spite of a draw in the above-mentioned game Tiviakov-Topalov, Black's position looked highly suspect after 15...Rc8 16.Ndxb5 Qa5 17.a4 a6 18.Nd5. Soon White players found improvements and it became clear that 14...b5 leads to difficult struggle for a draw. In fact White has more than one way to improve on Topalov-Tiviakov, in all cases with significant advantage, see Timoshenko,G - Rogozenko,D 1-0, Bologan,V - Fedorov,A 1-0, Bakre,T - Singh,S 1-0.
    Instead of 16...Qa5, the somewhat strange move 16...a6 brought Black good results in practice. But they had little to do with the opening. After 17.Nd4 Black's compensation is not worth a pawn.
  11. 08 Nov '08 23:39 / 1 edit
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    I know, get lost yah greetin faced baby, if you have still not learned to face defeat with graciousness then you had better learn, right now we is facing some stiff decisions and we don't need cry babies yelling computer ever time they get whupped fair and square! so take it some place else, preferably your analysis room and see where you went wrong!
  12. 09 Nov '08 00:09
    I have been trying to look at this without book analysis.

    See 14. ... Bxg4 above which seems suspect but may be playable

    14. ... Nxg4 looks less good.

    14. ... b5 (Bear in mind this is my own analysis)

    15. b3 Rxd4 16.Bxd4 b4 17.Nd5 looks horrible for black.

    15. b3 Rb4 16.a3 Rxd4 17.Bxd4 Qa5 18.Nd5 Qxa3 looks equally bad.

    These are just brief, first looks at deviations from theory.
  13. 09 Nov '08 00:16
    Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
    I have been trying to look at this without book analysis.

    See 14. ... Bxg4 above which seems suspect but may be playable

    14. ... Nxg4 looks less good.

    14. ... b5 (Bear in mind this is my own analysis)

    15. b3 Rxd4 16.Bxd4 b4 17.Nd5 looks horrible for black.

    15. b3 Rb4 16.a3 Rxd4 17.Bxd4 Qa5 18.Nd5 Qxa3 looks equally bad.

    These are just brief, first looks at deviations from theory.
    ....Bxg4, two pawns for a piece, i like it, yes siree,
  14. 09 Nov '08 00:22
    If we're going to look at tries like Bxg4 we might as well sacrafice the exchange while we're at it (Rxf3) and plonk the knight in the center with Nxe5. If black can keep the knight in the center he might actually have a good game but this would appear to be a longshot also.
  15. 09 Nov '08 00:24
    Originally posted by Uries
    If we're going to look at tries like Bxg4 we might as well sacrafice the exchange while we're at it (Rxf3) and plonk the knight in the center with Nxe5. If black can keep the knight in the center he might actually have a good game but this would appear to be a longshot also.
    i remember following an Anand game in which he sacrificed the exchange and went on either to win or draw, is it quite common practice in a position like this?