Originally posted by Green Paladin
[quote]Again, you use of the word “interest” is vague.
It can be said, I think without being too vague, that they have evolved to have a predisposition to behave in certain ways that, within the typical environment they live in, maximise their chances of survival. -but what exactly does it mean to say “animals have an “interest” to carry on living”? - an jump through your hoops. Good day.
“...For someone who claims that the innermost feelings and states of mind of nonhuman animals is unknowable ...”
I am claiming we cannot be sure although that does not rule out making some educated guesses (like I did).
“...
There is no rational connection; there is no evidence that most animals (excluding humans) are aware of their own emotional states of their brain so there is no obvious reason why we 'should' give them the same legal rights as the rest of us.
(my quote)
So should mentally deficient humans qualify for MORAL consideration? How about infants? ...” (my emphasis)
Did I say anything about “MORAL” considerations?
“....
Yes, I read that, and it is pseudo-science. So exactly what evidence can there be that “Poultry can suffer by FEELING pain, fear and stress.” -now think about this VERY carefully before answering this! -how can you have evidence of what an animal is actually “FEELING”? Answer, you can't. Science can only observe an animal's behaviour and physiological responses BUT real science can NOT show “evidence” of what they are “FEELING”!
(my quote)
The professional opinion of a poultry ethologist is pseudoscience? ...”
That depends; in this case it is because he is talking about something that might be outside his profession:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethology
“the scientific study of animal behaviour “
-although it can have other meanings, the fact remains, you cannot scientifically study the inner feelings of animals that they are consciously aware of because you cannot know that.
“...How do we know that anyone else besides ourselves feel emotion? ...”
By reasonable inference; I feel emotions and other people claim to feel emotions so it is a reasonable hypotheses that we all feel emotions.
“...These impulses, emotions, and feelings are located in the diencephalon, which is well developed in many other species of animals, especially mammals and birds. ...”
Yes; but does that mean that all mammals and birds are aware of those feelings? Answer, no.
“...The anthropocentric requirement that nonhuman animals be like humans to have moral status is just the sort of thinking that motivates sexists, racists and homophobes: ...”
Did I say anything about “moral status”? Answer, no. Stop putting words into my mouth! I do NOT believe nor have I said that “ anthropocentric requirement that nonhuman animals be like humans to have moral status”!
“...first you acknowledged that animals feel pain with remarks like, "I can believe there is often animal cruelty in many meat-farm methods", ...”
Actually, I acknowledged that some animals MIGHT feel pain AND be consciously aware of it so, just in case they ARE consciously aware of “pain”, I would want the corresponding caution when handling animals.
“...Then you adopt the absurd position of denying that animals can feel pain ...”
No, that is not what I said nor is this my position. I said we cannot be SURE that they are consciously aware that they are in pain and I am not even claiming that all animals are definitely NOT aware of such a thing -we can only make an educated guess.
“...Your argument is viciously circular: in order to have moral status nonhuman animals must be like humans ...”
This is NOT my argument! Where did I say “ in order to have moral status nonhuman animals must be like humans”? I never mentioned morality!
“...On top of this you deliberately misrepresent my position by using flies and nematodes as an example when it is clear that I've been arguing for sentient vertebrate species. ...”
Once you claim that science can somehow show all vertebrate species have conscious awareness of their own feelings (assuming that this is what you actually claim? ) then why can you not use exactly the same logic to claim that science can somehow show all flies and nematodes have conscious awareness of their own feelings? ( and using the same 'evidence' for this ) .