@KellyJay saidYou talking about my papers?
You are so full of yourself, you have been saying SCEINCE, SCEINCE, and I asked you to show me some science that supports evolutionary processes that are not also part of the creation narrative. You want to turn this personal? Just produce what you claim you have, that's all I'm asking.
@sonhouse saidI am asking you to produce something that supports evolution that also does not support a creation narrative. The best example of something in both camps are (fossils) both creation and undirected evolutionary chemical change apologists claims fossils, they just disagree about the details. An example of something only in one camp would be symbeotic nature of the genetic code. Code that produces specified work, requires a coder.
You talking about my papers?
@KellyJay saidOh, now you think I am a genetic engineer? I follow science news about life origins.
I am asking you to produce something that supports evolution that also does not support a creation narrative. The best example of something in both camps are (fossils) both creation and undirected evolutionary chemical change apologists claims fossils, they just disagree about the details. An example of something only in one camp would be symbeotic nature of the genetic code. Code that produces specified work, requires a coder.
For instance, did you even click on the link I sent about amino acids in space?
@sonhouse saidNow, I think you opened your mouth about things you are clueless about and are try to deflect, because you cannot put up, and you refuse to shut up.
Oh, now you think I am a genetic engineer? I follow science news about life origins.
For instance, did you even click on the link I sent about amino acids in space?
@KellyJay saidI asked a question and you clearly are not going to EVER click on that link because you don't WANT any new knowledge interfere with your religious bias.
Now, I think you opened your mouth about things you are clueless about and are try to deflect, because you cannot put up, and you refuse to shut up.
@sonhouse saidIf I click your link and watch it, will you answer my question about the content?
I asked a question and you clearly are not going to EVER click on that link because you don't WANT any new knowledge interfere with your religious bias.
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@KellyJay saidSure. What content? That probe was incredible, launching the probe, intercepting Bennu, an asteroid, about a billion miles away.
If I click your link and watch it, will you answer my question about the content?
So it closes in on Bennu, and it contacts and drives a small stake into Bennu to hold it in place because the gravity is almost zero. So a piece of itself sticks in Bennu and then another part slammed into the surface and little grabbers took up the dust into a container with the lid fastened down, sample secure, the rod sticking in the ground is let go, rockets fire and BTW, all this is under local computer control not dudes with remote controls. Anyway, rockets fire and because there is so little gravity on that asteroid it doesn't take a huge push by rockets to get out of Dodge and now there is a journey of a year or more getting back to Earth and reentry in the atmosphere, heat shields keep it safe, then closer to Earth some extenders reach out and the probe with its precious cargo is captured when it lands and captured at sea and then the cargo carefully detached and taken to Goddard space flight center to the waiting labs.
That should have been the beginning of the science, probing the composition of the dust return sample.
But there was a big problem.
There was something wrong with the doors on the package, not sure exactly what happened, maybe something like when the contactor hit Bennu more dust was retrieved than first thought and some of that dust got into the release mechanism and they could not get the lid open to extract the dust in a clean room environment to minimize contamination. (I knew that part intimately, when I was on Apollo the guy next door where I lived on the south end of the beltway and Goddard about 50 miles away on the north end and got to talking with him, what are the odds two Apollo workers would move in right next door to each other, anyway, we got to talking, so where do you work, Goddard we both go, Apollo, HOLY DOG POOP! So he said he was a geological technician and and his job was to slice incoming sample rocks and in a cleanroom with a vault door that would have been happy inside the Denver Mint, massive door opens into a lab with people running experiments and such and a wall on the left with hundreds of pounds of Moon rocks on shelves waiting to be analyzed.
So Roger shows me his little sample saw that uses a very thin diamond blade which is not even turning all that fast, and cutting through giving a pristine slice for the scientists to work on.
So Roger goes, you want to hold a moonrock? Does the frog poop in the woods🙂
He goes over to the big shelf of captured moon rocks and picks up one maybe 2 inches across looking like someone scooped up a piece of an asphalt highway and he gives it to me, I am like in an epiphany🙂 I am holding a moon rock brought back by Apollo crew, a half million mile journey, landing on the moon, scratching around picking up rocks and stuffing them into a contamination proof container, and brought back to Earth.
I asked him, ok, you just let me hold this rock in my hands, now it is contaminated so why are we touching these rocks without gloves?
He said as soon as the container is opened holding the rocks, they are instantly contaminated which is where his job comes in, which is to cleanly slice a piece that WOULD have no contamination and a pristine slice is given the science crew and in one interesting turn of events for me, there was a young engineer who was an expert on electron microscopes, a dude you could FEEL intelligence oozing out of him, anyway, he said he needs a scientific assistant working on his project which it turned out was a breakthrough technology he invented himself and built up a setup to show his work.
That work was the early on, a few years earlier, the realization that when the electron beam of the microscope hits a sample, X rays are given off at angles EXACTLY specific to what the electron probe hits and up to the point that engineer got involved, just collateral damage which can make maintenance problems with extended use and hours of electron beams blasting away at targets and such, till that engineer came around and figured out you could put an X ray detector outside the box of the electron microscope on an assembly that could be put at exact angles from the internal sample where say, the electrons hits say a patch of aluminum, there would be this angle which X rays shoot out ONLY that angle for aluminum so he was able to find the angle for aluminum and such and say iron, or calcium, whatever, he built up a list of angles relating to damn near all the elements, what angle gives information on what exact isotope probed and such.
So that was the physical part, what he did with it was genius BESIDES all that he already accomplished.
The next part was, ok NOW WHAT?, That WHAT was using the output of the X ray detector going to the screen that shows what the microscope is probing, tiny tiny patch on a sample, so he took that X ray signal and fed it to amps that went to the TV monitor and fed that info to the Z drive of the picture, which in this case was say picturing the electron beam of those old monitors hitting the inside of the screen making a visible image, so the Z drive would be like as if there were a bunch of layers where you needed to access an area UP from the inside of the screen and in this case of course there was nothing up away that happens inside those old screens so what the Z drive did in this case was to give the image a boost in brightness where say aluminum was encountered in the electron microscope probe, ONLY aluminum would light up on the monitor or whatever he was scientifically interested in seeing.
So today companies like Oxford Instruments have commercialized that so you don't need the clumsy assembly that engineer used for his initial inventions and you get a real visualization of color coded areas where say green would be iron and a blue patch would be calcium and so forth.
Anyway, the engineer needed an assistant and he said I would get the job and went to HR to transfer me to his shop.
But he encountered a budget crunch, Nixon by that time was tired of a Democrat run project so by 74 shut down Apollo and the rest is history, but that was 3 years away ATT for me. But the budget crunch meant they cut his lab budget by 20 thousand dollars which would have been my paycheck so he could not hire me and I lost out on the very beginning of a revolution in electron microscope technology, EDX, I think is the name of that tech.
So anyway there I was in that incredible lab holding a moon rock.
And back to bennu samples, they futzed around with the lid for MONTHS till they were able to come up with special tools hand built to handle the issue of the mechanics not allowing the lid to open, then some 8 months after they secured the sample package they finally got a chance to sample the dust in a contamination free lab and that is when they started the real science of the project, just what was in that dust, what was it made of, which turned out to have amino acids in the dust which meant clouds of precursor stuff came in from some vagrant cloud of gunk from an exploding star and that stuff hit everything in the solar system including Bennu, the asteroid and Earth and Mars etc.
So the final report clearly suggested Amino acids, one of the basic bits of what makes up our form of life can be made in outer space, not needing some planet next to a star like Earth with atmosphere and such for a way for millions of years of experiments on Earth where stuff gets hit by lightning as one example, and gets a boost in complexity and eventually making amino acids out of mud basically, but all that gets short circuited by the discovery at least THAT little bit of life does NOT need to take millions of years of chemical experimentation of random chemical exchanges on Earth, that stuff comes in fully made in a gas cloud impinging on the solar system and depositing those precursor molecules in one fell swoop.
That is ALL I am talking about here, ONE STEP closer to SCIENTIFIC understanding of life origins NOTHING MORE, this is NOT an expose on how life forms, but just one of the steps that will be needed in the future to show how life could form on Earth or anywhere else conditions are even half way amenable to life.
@sonhouse saidNone of that address the one thing I have been asking about. I do not wonder about finding the material, we can find all of the material around us. Those questions are valid, but they do not present a mystery. You do not need to wonder how something you need got to where you needed to be in order to work with it.
Sure. What content? That probe was incredible, launching the probe, intercepting Bennu, an asteroid, about a billion miles away.
So it closes in on Bennu, and it contacts and drives a small stake into Bennu to hold it in place because the gravity is almost zero. So a piece of itself sticks in Bennu and then another part slammed into the surface and little grabbers took up t ...[text shortened]... to show how life could form on Earth or anywhere else conditions are even half way amenable to life.
Where random chance leaves is where chaos becomes specified, where unguided chemical reactions becomes highly functionally complex with stop starts, level checking, and operational dependencies.
@KellyJay saidDid you read the whole post or just skim it?
None of that address the one thing I have been asking about. I do not wonder about finding the material, we can find all of the material around us. Those questions are valid, but they do not present a mystery. You do not need to wonder how something you need got to where you needed to be in order to work with it.
Where random chance leaves is where chaos becomes speci ...[text shortened]... becomes highly functionally complex with stop starts, level checking, and operational dependencies.
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@KellyJay saidOF COURSE, you refuse to accept life origins as a real discipline so you poo poo any such scientific endeavor forgetting that what benefits we find from almost any research project can have implications far outside the original discipline like Newton having the brilliance to put a thermometer on the red end of a prism and realizing he found something new, a part of the spectrum totally unknown and now with that simple observation, IR is essential for data transmission and of course 300 years ago the very idea of IR was so new nobody could use it for anything for centuries.
It is impressive, just not part of the discussion.
So when they do analysis on Bennu, the results will generate more questions than it answers which is how science grows.
But of course you will always diss life origin science since for you it can NEVER be an actual science since you think they are wasting their time and money which could be used for a lot of other things.
Here is a clip from that paper:
In a new study, researchers, including scientists at the Earth-Life Science Institute (ELSI) at the Institute of Science Tokyo, investigated how simple protocell models respond to realistic, non-equilibrium conditions thought to resemble those on early Earth. Rather than promoting a single theory about how life began, the team focused on testing how variations in membrane chemistry affect protocell growth, fusion, and the ability to retain biomolecules during freeze–thaw cycles.
@sonhouse saidI’ve begged you to show me your science on how chemicals arrange themselves as they move towards life, NOT which chemicals were part of it. You can find all the parts, nothing out of the ordinary that requires anything more than just lying on or in the earth, but putting them together is something much more.
OF COURSE, you refuse to accept life origins as a real discipline so you poo poo any such scientific endeavor forgetting that what benefits we find from almost any research project can have implications far outside the original discipline like Newton having the brilliance to put a thermometer on the red end of a prism and realizing he found something new, a part of the spect ...[text shortened]... y affect protocell growth, fusion, and the ability to retain biomolecules during freeze–thaw cycles.
You avoid the only part of this discussion that requires something more than the ordinary to accoumplish. Identifying pieces is nothing compared to putting them together to form life. So you identify some ingredients that are hard to find, and you think that is a huge step toward life’s origins. Not exactly earth-shattering.
@KellyJay saidYou keep forgetting I am a cleanroom hardware expert not genetics which is why I read about it.
I’ve begged you to show me your science on how chemicals arrange themselves as they move towards life, NOT which chemicals were part of it. You can find all the parts, nothing out of the ordinary that requires anything more than just lying on or in the earth, but putting them together is something much more.
You avoid the only part of this discussion that requires someth ...[text shortened]... ard to find, and you think that is a huge step toward life’s origins. Not exactly earth-shattering.