On existence of Mind and Soul

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
you certainly puzzle me by that comment.
I certainly agree that:
“...it is an emergent property of the collective interactions of brain cells, ...”
and I find that a very interesting way of stating it.

But I am not really sure what you mean by: “...The "mind" is a metaphorical construct, ...”.

and as for: “... not something that is physical ...[text shortened]... e and the same space as the interacting gas molecules that collectively create that pressure?

What I mean is that what is popularly known as "the mind" (consciousness, feelings etc.) is a consequence of the way our nervous system works. "The mind" is thus a metaphor for the emergent properties of our nervous system, even though there is no "mind" seperate from the body (in my opinion).

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Yes, you are pretty close to what must be the reality.But mind can not be only an antenna.It has to be the master organiser and controller of the brain cells but is not located within the physical/biological body. So where is it?

I believe the Pixies wrote a song on that exact subject "Where is my Mind? "

I'm happy enough to know that the mind seems not to be bound to my physical existence.
I dont really care where it is and suspect that question is not nearly as important as some others.

Originally posted by lausey
The "mind" is just advanced processing power that is distributed across a network of brain cells, resulting from billions of years of evolution. It isn't a single entity, although it will have the illusion of being one.

I thought the illusion was one of separatness.
Certainly it seems that my mind is mine only from a "get up in the morning" -type conciousness.
We are taught that All is mind.(eastern psychobabble)
I have come across theories that support this hypothesis, but nothing that I care to repeat for now...

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
No, by definition metaphysical objects cannot influence physical objects.

Dear KazetNagorra and Andrew Hamilton,
We need to define the term " Metaphysical Object",used by KazetNagorra.
He says that by definition such objects cannot influence physical objects.
My understanding of "Metaphysical Objects" is as follows.:- Those phenomena which reveal themselves by their effect on the Physical World but cannot be directly known . In such a class of objects(Phenomena to use a better word),we can include all Energy forms such as Light,Heat,Electromagnetism etc. Heat is a fact/phenomenon that has effect/action on the physical world and is sensed only indirectly i.e. by the rise in the level of Mercury in a thermometer or by a warmth on hands when sitting in front of a fire. There is no direct way to" know Heat" except by its effects. If you agree to this for the limited purpose of this discussion then Mind which can be known only through its actions on the brain must be included in the list of metaphysical objects which are known by their effect on the physical world.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Dear KazetNagorra and Andrew Hamilton,
We need to define the term " Metaphysical Object",used by KazetNagorra.
He says that by definition such objects cannot influence physical objects.
My understanding of "Metaphysical Objects" is as follows.:- Those phenomena which reveal themselves by their effect on the Physical World but cannot be directly known in the list of metaphysical objects which are known by their effect on the physical world.

Light, heat, electromagnetism are all physical properties that manifest themselves in a physical, measurable way. But there is no clear definition of "mind" that would allow us to measure one.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Light, heat, electromagnetism are all physical properties that manifest themselves in a physical, measurable way. But there is no clear definition of "mind" that would allow us to measure one.

Except by actions that destroy brain cells and therefore mind.

You can't have mind without brain cells, that seems clear. You can have actions without brain cells as is shown by some jellyfish, reacting away from light of certain color which is an association with danger and not reacting to other colors not tied to danger. There are no brain cells in this animal but these things happen anyway. They also can track and attack prey foods but don't have a nervous system. In no way can you say they have a mind.

You can say other species than humans possess mind, like dolphins and the like, even chimps and some elephants, they all react to images of self, pass the mirror test and such so I don't think it going out on a limb to say they have mind also.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I thought the illusion was one of separatness.
Certainly it seems that my mind is mine only from a "get up in the morning" -type conciousness.
We are taught that All is mind.(eastern psychobabble)
I have come across theories that support this hypothesis, but nothing that I care to repeat for now...

Dear karoly aczel,
Why use words like Eastern Psychobabble ?
Is the West endowed with superior knowledge of the functions of Mind and Brain? Are western people more in control of their arguments i.e they don't babble but talk with mellifluous voice in a sweet reasoning manner ? A look at the exchanges in the forums will convince any unbiased observer that westerners are arguing in a way that can be politely described as savage personal attacks much devoid of sense.

Your racial prejudice slip is showing.



Let us disagree without being disagreeable.
In case you are interested in Eastern philosophy esp. reg. Mind,I will be glad to oblige.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Let us not kill the debate by turning away from it.
The entity called Mind has been well talked about for centuries and well theorized in Science. Only that nobody can prove its existence in the usual scientific manner i.e by experiments in the Lab.
If Mind is not a concept but a fact,it is not metaphysics.

If we leave for a while the standard Euro-American view aside and talk a bit about ayatana, we will be in fact forced to talk about the interaction of the mind with sense impressions, feelings, perceptions and volition.
The mind as a sense organ has as its objects the inner picturing, the monologue, the intentions, the thoughts and the meditation amongst else. In addition, within this context, the mind is not privileged merely as a separate receptor of the five senses but it is understood as a unique sense like the five Euro-Americans. Therefore, mind is considered to be the dynamic self-organised creative system that has the ability to overcome physical and temporal constraints by means of using and producing energy in order to support one's self in full. And it has the shape of one's awareness at every given time. So one's mind manifests equally in one's body, and since a part of the body is the brain it manifests in the brain too. This is the reason why an Eastern would point to her/ his heart or to her/ his lower abdomen if you ask her/ him to point to her/ his mind, whilst a Westerner would point to her/ his head because in the West “mind” is related mostly to “thinking” and “thought”.
An Eastern meditator calms her/ his mind by coordinating her/ his thoughts, her/ his actions and her/ his breath, and s/he empowers and actualizes her/ his mind by coordinating her/ his thoughts, her/ his physical actions, her/ his breath and her/ his spirit/ attitude.


Some see a personal soul in there; I see Vast Emptiness.
Nothing Holy
😵

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Light, heat, electromagnetism are all physical properties that manifest themselves in a physical, measurable way. But there is no clear definition of "mind" that would allow us to measure one.

Light,Heat,Electromagnetism are not properties. These are physical phenomena essentially being various types of Energy. As you are aware. modern physics makes no difference between Energy and Mass( Matter). Modern physics says that they are convertible into each other.
My submission is that Mind is also a "fact" and not a Metaphysical concept nor an idea. It is simply the Operating System of the Brain,to use modern terminology. Only nobody knows where this software resides.

Originally posted by black beetle
If we leave for a while the standard Euro-American view aside and talk a bit about ayatana, we will be in fact forced to talk about the interaction of the mind with sense impressions, feelings, perceptions and volition.
The mind as a sense organ-----
Nothing Holy
😵

A fine summary of the Buddhist view of Mind. But do you know that in Hindu Spiritual thought,it is considered that the aim of meditation is to annihilate our Mind ?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Light,Heat,Electromagnetism are not properties. These are physical phenomena essentially being various types of Energy. As you are aware. modern physics makes no difference between Energy and Mass( Matter). Modern physics says that they are convertible into each other.
My submission is that Mind is also a "fact" and not a Metaphysical concept nor an ide ...[text shortened]... System of the Brain,to use modern terminology. Only nobody knows where this software resides.

Light, heat and electromagnetism are measurable and therefore not metaphysics. We also have models describing their behaviour pretty well in most situations.

Modern physics does make a difference between mass and energy (they don't even have the same unit so cannot be the same), however it is true that mass is not conserved.

The OS of the brain is the brain.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
A fine summary of the Buddhist view of Mind. But do you know that in Hindu Spiritual thought,it is considered that the aim of meditation is to annihilate our Mind ?

I am aware of the Hindu approach; however, the aim of the meditation is not "the annihilation of our Mind" but the total control of the mechanism that is causing the constant string of thoughts. Amongst else the meditator monitors constantly the string of her/ his thoughts and at the same time s/he analyses where they are coming from, how and why, until they are recognised by her/ him as empty entities that lack of svabhava. Then the storms of the thoughts that were causing waves on the surface of the ocean-like mind are coming to a halt, and the mind becomes a perfect mirror in which every phenomenon is reflected without the slightest distortion of its essense. From this state of the mind evolve conditions that they become the epistemic objects of the conceptual and the non-conceptual awareness of the meditator.

I still fail to spot a personal soul; in fact, I discard the dualism "Body & Mind" -I perceive merely the existence of the single entity "BodyMind"
😵

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Light, heat and electromagnetism are measurable and therefore not metaphysics. We also have models describing their behaviour pretty well in most situations.

Modern physics does make a difference between mass and energy (they don't even have the same unit so cannot be the same), however it is true that mass is not conserved.

The OS of the brain is the brain.

Have you any Scientific evidence to show that the OS of the Brain is the Brain ? Any statement by a scientist/physiological expert?

Originally posted by black beetle
I am aware of the Hindu approach; however, the aim of the meditation is not "the annihilation of our Mind" but the total control of the mechanism that is causing the constant string of thoughts. Amongst else the meditator monitors constantly the string of her/ his thoughts and at the same time s/he analyses where they are coming from, how and why, until ...[text shortened]... dualism "Body & Mind" -I perceive merely the existence of the single entity "BodyMind"
😵

What you started describing is the standard language of Vipasshana Sadhana. But vipasshana does not require you to analyze sources of thoughts, just that you note them dispassionately( according to my wife who attended the one week beginner's course). So this part of your description probably pertains to Yogabhyas as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Any mix up of two distinct types of Sadhanas ?
Excuse me that I venture to ask because within the contributors on this forum only you seem to believe in an entity called mind and that has encouraged me quite a bit.
Does the icon against your I.D. purport show a Yogabhyas mat ?
Imagine somebody from Shvenvingen,Netherlands talking very clearly and authoritatively about Yoga to an Indian ! Great !

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
What you started describing is the standard language of Vipasshana Sadhana. But vipasshana does not require you to analyze sources of thoughts, just that you note them dispassionately( according to my wife who attended the one week beginner's course). So this part of your description probably pertains to Yogabhyas as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Any mix up ...[text shortened]... envingen,Netherlands talking very clearly and authoritatively about Yoga to an Indian ! Great !

I should not have used the word annihilation in respect of the mind as that word is a bit strong! But all our Yogis and Saints say that that the Mind ceases to exist for the person who has attained the Liberation while still living.