Originally posted by ckoh1965Each time I found that you're defensive and gave illogical responses.
FreakyKBH. I've been looking up on the many debates on here for quite a while now. Each time I found that you're defensive and gave illogical responses. But this particular post I find that your argument is sensible. At least something for a change!
Very interesting argument and makes a lot of sense. But let's leave the lottery and coin toss for a moment ...[text shortened]... having the same sin; and therefore same punishment? So which lever should we pull?
Am/did not! Am/did not! Am/did not!
Even further muddying the waters of the choice you have reduced it to, both Muslims and Christians have historically engaged in power struggles unrelated to either of their core beliefs. Moreover, both sides have claimed that eternal outcomes hinge on adoption/rejection of their political aims, totally antithetical to the issue of salvation.
The answer is for each individual to determine, without coercion from politically-minded groups masquerading as representatives of spiritual schools of thought. Whether God is accurately represented by either the tenets of Christian or Muslim beliefs, one thing is certain: He honors man's autonomy in the choice.
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomDon't forget No.4
1. believe in God and youre right and you are saved.
2. believe in God and youre wrong and nothing happens.
3. dont believe in God, be wrong and be punished.
i dont remember who came up with that, but what do you think?
Don't believe in god, be right and leave it at that.
Originally posted by ckoh1965Don't you have the choice to drive at any speed at any time in your
In fact, what you are saying is that it's up to you to do as you please; BUT! not without consequences.
You don't really have the freedom to do something and not be judged by your act. It's like when I say, Kelly, you can go ahead and do as you please; the choice is yours. But if I see you do something against my wishes, I will punish you! It is not the 'free will' as in doing whatever I like and then nobody cares about it.
life? You cold drive by a grade school at 105 mph on the side walk
it is a choice you may make, of course you and others will live or die
with those actions as you and others do when you go to work to feed
and house your family. You seem to think that consequences are
a bad thing, I fail to see how you can come up with that when you
live in a universe where consequences are simply a part of your daily
life.
Kelly
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Originally posted by ckoh1965My last post, posted twice for some odd reason.
In fact, what you are saying is that it's up to you to do as you please; BUT! not without consequences.
You don't really have the freedom to do something and not be judged by your act. It's like when I say, Kelly, you can go ahead and do as you please; the choice is yours. But if I see you do something against my wishes, I will punish you! It is not the 'free will' as in doing whatever I like and then nobody cares about it.
Kell
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThis post is a mathematical, philosophical and analytical abomination. Anybody who has read it would do well to forget it immediately.
You're mixing the two concepts. It is not the odds of winning, but the odds of favor. In the pass/fail system (which this clearly is), one either pulls the lever or refuses to pull the lever.
The one who pulls the lever is now faced with two possibilities: that which was promised is real and becomes his reward; or, that which was promised is false a ...[text shortened]... he lever has a best case of receiving nothing (and a worst case of receiving an eternal hell).
Originally posted by KellyJayOh no, I think you are getting me wrong. I am not complaining that there are consequences out of my actions. I have long accepted that as a part of life. I do this, then I get this outcome; I do that, then I get that outcome. That is straight-forward enough.
Don't you have the choice to drive at any speed at any time in your
life? You cold drive by a grade school at 105 mph on the side walk
it is a choice you may make, of course you and others will live or die
with those actions as you and others do when you go to work to feed
and house your family. You seem to think that consequences are
a bad thing, I fa ...[text shortened]... t when you
live in a universe where consequences are simply a part of your daily
life.
Kelly
But this line, "god gives free will" in my opinion, gives one the impression that god allows us to do as we please without judging us. But that is not the case. He will judge us; he will punish us if he finds us disobeying his wishes!
If I own a supermarket, and I say to you: Kelly, help yourself, take whatever you like. I give you free will. Now what does a lay person make out of that? I think the lay person has the tendency to interpret that as: Take anything you like, and I won't charge you a penny. But in god's case, it's not for free, it's gonna cost you something! But of course if you help me remove the rubbish in the corridor, I'll pay you for it.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhat does that really mean? If, for example, I find that Islam is more believeable, and hence I worship that god, will the christian god still honour my choice? Or will he punish me for disbelieving in him?
Whether God is accurately represented by either the tenets of Christian or Muslim beliefs, one thing is certain: He honors man's autonomy in the choice.
the point is that it is proven mathematically that it is more logical to believe in God than it isnt. you can believe in God and worship him, and whether he is real or not you are safe. but if you dont believe in God then you are either wrong and go to hell, or right and you dont benifit at all. he says it makes more sense to be a theist because you have no chance of going to hell.
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Originally posted by ckoh1965i think he will know youre trying to worship him, no matter what religion you pick you acknowledge him as God. he is God and you are worshipping him no matter what you call him.
What does that really mean? If, for example, I find that Islam is more believeable, and hence I worship that god, will the christian god still honour my choice? Or will he punish me for disbelieving in him?
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomAhh... finally we have come full circle! In another thread, I said that I'm convinced that there is a creator. I'm not very concerned with what we name that creator. You can call him god if you like. BUT! I don't believe in religion, because I think religions are a bunch of craps.
i think he will know youre trying to worship him, no matter what religion you pick you acknowledge him as God. he is God and you are worshipping him no matter what you call him.
Although I believe in a creator, I'm not sure I subscribe to the idea of that creator wanting so much to be worshipped. So, while I acknowledge that there is a creator, I don't believe that I have to pray and worship him. I don't wake up so early on Sundays to go to church; or I don't pray 5 times a day to please god. I try my best to be a good person. I try to help others if I can.
So now you are saying he doesn't really care what I call him, or which avenue I take, as long as I acknowledge him, it's OK?
Originally posted by ckoh1965no, i think you have to acknowledge him as God and worship him.
Ahh... finally we have come full circle! In another thread, I said that I'm convinced that there is a creator. I'm not very concerned with what we name that creator. You can call him god if you like. BUT! I don't believe in religion, because I think religions are a bunch of craps.
Although I believe in a creator, I'm not sure I subscribe to the idea of ...[text shortened]... ly care what I call him, or which avenue I take, as long as I acknowledge him, it's OK?
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomalso the christian God says to not put Gods before you, which i think means not to make up your own Gods rather than you cannot worship the jewish or islam God, i think they are the same thing.
no, i think you have to acknowledge him as God and worship him.
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomMathematically proven? What a joke. I suggest you go to Wikipedia and read a more in depth criticism of Pascal's Wager:
the point is that it is proven mathematically that it is more logical to believe in God than it isnt. you can believe in God and worship him, and whether he is real or not you are safe. but if you dont believe in God then you are either wrong and go to hell, or right and you dont benifit at all. he says it makes more sense to be a theist because you have no chance of going to hell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager#Criticisms_of_Pascal.27s_wager
While you're at it, you can read about the 'atheist's wager', which states:
It is better to live your life as if there are no gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist%27s_Wager