@JW's: Do I need to join the JWs to go to heaven?

Originally posted by divegeester
Well, I guess after nearly 250 posts that's as close to an honest yes or no answer as I'm going to get.

Do I need to join the JWs to go to heaven? [b]A = possibly not.[/b]

its not that we are being dishonest, nor evasive, its just difficult to answer in a yes and no format. you see we are sure that some persons go to heaven , we are sure that some do not, but whether they need to join our organisation or not is difficult to answer, it may take time, for there are some specific passages that have a bearing on the outcome. Furthermore, what compounds the , i wont say uncertainty, more the complexities, is that many passages refer to salvation, which for us have two meanings, earthly paradise or heavenly government, so even if salvation is indicated, it may not be clear what it refers to, heavenly or earthly.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i think the problem is that perhaps divegeester somehow attributes salvation to heaven and he is trying to assign that value to us, when as Raj pointed out, to us they are different. I used to think it was a silly question, but now i think its quite good. where is the passage where the angel passes through the city and marks persons for salvation? you know the one with the inkhorn?

Ezek 9th chapter....

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i think the problem is that perhaps divegeester somehow attributes salvation to heaven and he is trying to assign that value to us, when as Raj pointed out, to us they are different. I used to think it was a silly question, but now i think its quite good. where is the passage where the angel passes through the city and marks persons for salvation? you know the one with the inkhorn?

It's a shame we fell out over it, but that indicates the importance of being able to point someone to salvation through Christ and not through an organisation. The body of believers is Christ's church not any named organisation.

If I had been asked the same question of ANY church organisation I belonged to my immediate answer would be "no you do not have to join mine nor anyone else's organisation in order to go to heaven, experience salvation nor to be free from condemnation".

Salvation is completely free, it is only discipleship that costs.

Originally posted by divegeester
It's a shame we fell out over it, but that indicates the importance of being able to point someone to salvation through Christ and not through an organisation. The body of believers is Christ's church not any named organisation.

If I had been asked the same question of ANY church organisation I belonged to my immediate answer would be [b]"no you do n ...[text shortened]... rom condemnation".

Salvation is completely free, it is only discipleship that costs.[/b]

So being part of an organization is wrong?

Originally posted by galveston75
Ezek 9th chapter....

ok thanks Galvo, ill check it out

Originally posted by galveston75
So being part of an organization is wrong?

No, just not necessary for salvation.

Originally posted by divegeester
It's a shame we fell out over it, but that indicates the importance of being able to point someone to salvation through Christ and not through an organisation. The body of believers is Christ's church not any named organisation.

If I had been asked the same question of ANY church organisation I belonged to my immediate answer would be [b]"no you do n ...[text shortened]... rom condemnation".

Salvation is completely free, it is only discipleship that costs.[/b]

well we are talking now and its all water under the bridge, but yes it was a pity words were exchanged 🙂

you see for us baptism has great significance, its a dedication, a public declaration that we have rid ourselves of our former conduct and we are now trying to live our lives according to our understanding of Gods will. Yes salvation is a free gift, to be sure, but there seem to be passages which indicate that some shall be saved and some shall not be.

Originally posted by galveston75
So being part of an organization is wrong?

It is wrong if your loyalties lie with the organisation. Your loyalities must lie with Christ and in doing his will. You and RC have defended the wrongs of the JWs organisation as if your lives depended on it. Yes, in that case what you have done is wrong.

The simple answer which youall should have stuck with is "NO .. you dont need to belong to the JW org to get eternal life .." End of Story. But your loyalties to the JW org stopped you from saying it becuase I know for a fact that the Watchtower preaches that you must be part of the Organisation to get eternal life. You were doing what the organisation said you must do and say. Your better judgment should have guided you to say that "God is the judge and God decides who gets salvation or not .."

Originally posted by Rajk999
It is wrong if your loyalties lie with the organisation. Your loyalities must lie with Christ and in doing his will. You and RC have defended the wrongs of the JWs organisation as if your lives depended on it. Yes, in that case what you have done is wrong.

The simple answer which youall should have stuck with is "NO .. you dont need to belong to the JW o have guided you to say that "God is the judge and God decides who gets salvation or not .."

well where does the watchtower state it , for i would like to know! then we can examine the content and give divegeester our opinion based on the BIBLICAL PASSAGES cited in the watchtower. where is it written?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
well where does the watchtower state it , for i would like to know! then we can examine the content and give divegeester our opinion based on the BIBLICAL PASSAGES cited in the watchtower. where is it written?

Its all over the internet. Google it yourself, you lazy bum. Dont worry. Apparently I know more about your corrupt organisation that you do. I will help you out :

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/salvation-only-for-jehovahs-witnesses.php

Here are a few excerpts :

"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19

"Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb. 15 p.12

"But Jehovah’s servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things." Watchtower 2007 Dec. 15 p.14

"Only Christian witnesses of Jehovah who successfully pass this test will survive and come forth like fire-refined gold for God's use in his precious new order". Watchtower 1985 Mar. 1 p.14

Originally posted by Rajk999
It is wrong if your loyalties lie with the organisation. Your loyalities must lie with Christ and in doing his will. You and RC have defended the wrongs of the JWs organisation as if your lives depended on it. Yes, in that case what you have done is wrong.

The simple answer which youall should have stuck with is "NO .. you dont need to belong to the JW o ...[text shortened]... have guided you to say that "God is the judge and God decides who gets salvation or not .."

Ok let me make this clear and I'm sure Robbie will agree. If the WT Society were to some time in the future come up with some very basic fundimental change and it was not bible based and went against what the Bible very clear states as truth, then we all have the right to question it, want answers to it and would pray on it to know the right answer.
I know that will not happen though because like most of us I had many questions and doubts that a group of people could say and honestly believe they have the truth. No way!!!! No such thing!!!! Impossible!!! It had to be proved to me and surly to Robbie too.
But God in one way or another has always had an organization even if a very small one. The Bible says he is an organized God. So why is that out of the question?
But the point I'm getting at is my loyalty is with God and him first. But it has been proven to Robbie and myself that he does have an organization here and alive and well on earth and doing exactly what we are told to do in his word the Bible. If I didn't believe it in my heart and it could be proved it's not, I would not be a JW as I'm a little lazy actually. Lol.
But in my 45 years no one has proved to me it's not. And certianly no one here at RHP has. Not enough proof by any scriptures in any way shape or form used by anyone. 99% of what's said here is opinion only.
But try if you want.

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok.. But God in one way or another has always had an organization even if a very small one. The Bible says he is an organized God. ...

Just about every sentence in that long post gives me the shivers... how can you be so ...... forget it.

The word 'organzed' is not in the KJV. Do you mind quoting the verse?
Also as the JWs only came into existence around early 1900, what orgainsation/s was/were Gods org for centuries before that?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Just about every sentence in that long post gives me the shivers... how can you be so ...... forget it.

The word 'organzed' is not in the KJV. Do you mind quoting the verse?
Also as the JWs only came into existence around early 1900, what orgainsation/s was/were Gods org for centuries before that?

Convienced? Is that it?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Just about every sentence in that long post gives me the shivers... how can you be so ...... forget it.

The word 'organzed' is not in the KJV. Do you mind quoting the verse?
Also as the JWs only came into existence around early 1900, what orgainsation/s was/were Gods org for centuries before that?

Well I think I'll go with what is proved by the Bible instead of one who goes by his own opinion and is convienced that Adam and Eve were replacements or secondary creations by God. But you are welcome to your own opinion.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
[b]The Bible’s Viewpoint
Who Go to Heaven?

A TERRORIST bomb rips apart an airliner in flight, killing all on board. Relatives and friends of the victims are told that their loved ones are now in heaven, as if to compensate for their untimely and violent death.

A popular musician dies and is said to be ‘trumpeting with the angels in heaven. ...[text shortened]...

courtesy of your friendly neighbourhood Jehovahs Witnesses, appearing on a doorstep near you![/b]

Luke 23:40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."




its so easy for anyone who has even the remotest bit of biblical knowledge to refute JW doctrine