A Bible truth....

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]nor as my good friend Noobster pointed out, will you people change your views, conclusion, debating with you people is a complete waste of time.

I actually am very open to changing my mind. I can point to many examples in which I have been corrected, proved wrong or when an argument has persuaded me. You, however, refuse to admit any error even wh ...[text shortened]... is basically an obstinate refusal to engage in reason. So do not pretend to be the victim here.[/b]

actually my experience is completely different, what passes in your mind for 'over whelming evidence', 'compelling arguments', in my mind amounts to naught but mere opinion. Believe what you want. I am at perfect liberty to desists from any discussion which appears to me to be futile, this is no exception.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
actually my experience is completely different, what passes in your mind for 'over whelming evidence', 'compelling arguments', in my mind amounts to naught but mere opinion. Believe what you want. I am at perfect liberty to desists from any discussion which appears to me to be futile, this is no exception.

Well, the path is very simple. Outline a response to my four objections. If they are not so compelling, the task should be straightforward.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, the path is very simple. Outline a response to my four objections. If they are not so compelling, the task should be straightforward.

no.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no.

Rob, my advice wasn't to start a debate by telling someone they don't know what they're talking about and then blatantly refuse to enter into a dialogue with them. My advice was to not post at all.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Rob, my advice wasn't to start a debate by telling someone they don't know what they're talking about and then blatantly refuse to enter into a dialogue with them. My advice was to not post at all.

i never stated that Conrau does not know what he is talking about, I merely stated that the basis of his arguments appear to me to be merely the expression of opinions. I even stated that he need not give my words any credence whatsoever and is free to promulgate the issue as he sees fit. That is not telling someone they do not know what they are talking about dear Noobster. He also states that he has changed his point of view, that i have ignored in the past overwhelming evidence, which, to be quite frank, has not been my experience and thus he set the tone already. Thus i desist from debating with him, which appears to me to be the wise course of action. He is after all free to take the matter up with anyone else, is he not?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
either you ate a huge bowl of id rather not actually tell the forum why none of these verses state that death is a state of unconsciousness, or you have covered yourself in chocolate and proceed to eat yourself, intermittently telling yourself how good you taste. Assertions with substantiation are bumf and mere opinion, yours is no exception. Perhaps you should try coco pops instead.

... rather not actually tell the forum why none of these verses state that death is a state of unconsciousness...
Oh ye of little attention span. Let's break it down for ya, alrighty then?

Gen 3:19.
This verse talks about the return to the dust of that which came from the dust. Namely, a few verses prior to this, the account tells us how God formed out of the dirt something new--- the body of a man. After forming the man out of something already existing, the account tells us how He then created something out of nothing--- the living soul--- and breathed the same into the body of dirt.

In the original Hebrew, this verse simply says the ground from which you were taken, you will return. No lack of consciousness of being here. Let's press forward, shall we?

Eccl 9:5,6,10.
The ruminations of self-described fool, Ecclesiastes in these verses speak from the view point that it all ends here. Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. The message: only in life is there any hope. Find that elsewhere in the Bible--- presented as doctrine and not cautionary or with sarcasm--- and you might have something every one else has missed.

Ps 146:4.
Wow: you really stepped in it on this one. Here, the psalmist is warning against putting ones trust in princes or in the offspring of man. Why? Because his breath goes forward (leaves him) and his body returns to the dirt from which it came. He has no power beyond whatever exerted herein. Instead, trust in God whose power exceeds not only this life, but the life to come.

1Thes 4:13.
Ditto the above, just from a different angle. Paul's telling the Thessalonian believers to cease thinking like unbelievers in the sense that unbelievers believe that the whole thing is over once death occurs. We should not have sorrow or loss of hope. Why? Because those who have passed will return with Him.

Acts 7:60.
Stephen died.

1 Corinthians 15:6.
Some of the witnesses to Christ's ascension were still alive at the time of that writing; some had died.

1 Kings 19:4
Really? Elijah fell asleep, was visited in his dreams by an angel, woke up, was visited again a few more times afterwards and then was tested in the cave.

In short--- as already stated--- not a single shred of support for anything other than the general consensus of orthodox Christianity. Specifically, man lives, man dies, man faces either judgment or evaluation. If man faces judgment, the outcome is less than ideal...

Just as lacking in attractiveness for those who twist and contort Scripture to give false hopes.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]... rather not actually tell the forum why none of these verses state that death is a state of unconsciousness...
Oh ye of little attention span. Let's break it down for ya, alrighty then?

Gen 3:19.
This verse talks about the return to the dust of that which came from the dust. Namely, a few verses prior to this, the account tells us how God as lacking in attractiveness for those who twist and contort Scripture to give false hopes.[/b]

i am sorry but both your tone and your explanations are particularly shallow even by your standards, let us just by way of example highlight your 'take', on Ecclesiastes, shall we, here are your words,

The ruminations of self-described fool? is this a personal confession? or a comment upon Solomon, of whom the Queen of Sheba states that she did not know the half of it, whose splendour was more than anyone previous or after, who searched many proverbial utterances to find the correct words of truth, described by you, all wise and all knowing as a fool?

(Ecclesiastes 1:12-13) . . .I, the congregator, happened to be king over Israel in Jerusalem.  And I set my heart to seek and explore wisdom in relation to everything that has been done under the heavens. . .

and we are to take your words seriously. Id take up another hobby if i were you, stamp licking, anything that really utilises the fork in your tongue, you could do two stamps at once.

Solomon clearly states ,'the dead are conscious of nothing', did you miss that part, gloss over it, did it reverberate against the side of your head and echo out in to the stratosphere?

if you are going to try to convince anyone of the value of your words, at least use discernible and effective methods, this is just bumf and is unworthy of further comment.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am sorry but both your tone and your explanations are particularly shallow even by your standards, let us just by way of example highlight your 'take', on Ecclesiastes, shall we, here are your words,

The ruminations of self-described fool? is this a personal confession? or a comment upon Solomon, of whom the Queen of Sheba states that she did ...[text shortened]... use discernible and effective methods, this is just bumf and is unworthy of further comment.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

How can a dead unconscious Abraham rejoice, see and be glad? Its entirely possible for patriachs, prophets and others to be in some state of consciousness awaiting judgment and the kingdom. Or is it your opinion that Christ was mistaken.
Or ... lets hear how the JW twist that verse.

And what about this:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Souls crying out for God to avenge their deaths.

Originally posted by Rajk999
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

How can a dead unconscious Abraham rejoice, see and be glad? Its entirely possible for patriachs, prophets and others to be in some state of consciousness awaiting judgment and the kingdom. Or is it your opinion that Christ was mistaken.
Or ... lets hear how the ...[text shortened]... e killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Souls crying out for God to avenge their deaths.

why dont you write to the watchtower bible and tract society and ask them, or the next time a witness comes past your home dodging the bullets, why dont you ask them. I have had quite enough bad experiences 'debating', with you to realise the futility of it. Believe what you want, you will anyway. As i stated before i dont do yappy dogs nor antagonists. Have a good evening.

i might just like to point out the use of the past participle, Abraham 'rejoiced', as in the past, not that he is rejoicing at present as you have erroneously tried to assert.

Ables blood also cries out,

(Genesis 4:8-10) . . .After that Cain said to Abel his brother: [“Let us go over into the field.”] So it came about that while they were in the field Cain proceeded to assault Abel his brother and kill him.  Later on Jehovah said to Cain: “Where is Abel your brother?” and he said: “I do not know. Am I my brother’s guardian?”  At this he said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.

Naturally according to your reasoning, his blood must be conscious.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why dont you write to the watchtower bible and tract society and ask them, or the next time a witness comes past your home dodging the bullets, why dont you ask them. I have had quite enough bad experiences 'debating', with you to realise the futility of it. Believe what you want, you will anyway. As i stated before i dont do yappy dogs nor antago ...[text shortened]... , as in the past, not that he is rejoicing at present as you have erroneously tried to assert.

He rejoiced at some past event concerning Christ. The point remains. Whats your explanation?

Originally posted by Rajk999
He rejoiced at some past event concerning Christ. The point remains. Whats your explanation?

no your point doesn't remain. Abraham in the past, (please read the text carefully, it states rejoiced as in the past) looked forward to the fulfilment of Gods promises, one of which was, ' that by means of his seed, all the nations would bless themselves'. The coming of the messiah, was the fulfilment of that promise, to which Abraham must have rejoiced. Why you have tried to construe that he consciously rejoices even though he is dead, is scripturally and grammatically incorrect and is about as weak as the freaky ones attempts.

(Hebrews 11:13)  In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no your point doesn't remain. Abraham in the past, (please read the text carefully, it states rejoiced as in the past) looked forward to the fulfilment of Gods promises, one of which was, ' that by means of his seed, all the nations would bless themselves'. The coming of the messiah, was the fulfilment of that promise, to which Abraham must have rej ...[text shortened]... omed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.

Being dead, Abraham could not have possibly seen the coming of the Messiah and therefore he could not have rejoiced .. according to you.

But he did ... he saw the coming of the Messiah and he rejoiced. So Christ disagrees with you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Being dead, Abraham could not have possibly seen the coming of the Messiah and therefore he could not have rejoiced .. according to you.

But he did ... he saw the coming of the Messiah and he rejoiced. So Christ disagrees with you.

(Hebrews 11:13) In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.

you might like to focus your attention on 'promises'.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I do not accept Ecclesiastes however as a statement of the afterlife. Rather, I see it as a rumination on the vanity of life without justice. To interpret it as a philosophical discourse about life after death is shallow.

Having said that, I think there is some evidence that the author believes in the immortality of the soul (Eccl. 7: 7, 12).

Back home from a couple days out of town.

Anyway the reason you can't accept a black and white scripture and then have to make an excuses for it, is because it can't jive with your beliefs of the immortal soul. So in the world your in as many others are, Bible must contradict itself alot.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
(Hebrews 11:13) In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.

you might like to focus your attention on 'promises'.

Their bodies died. Their souls did not die. Only God can kill the soul in hell.
The promise is the return of Christ to establish his kingdom.
Dont try to sidestep the issue. How can Christ say that Abraham saw his day (I would think its his arrival into this world) and was glad ?