Originally posted by Nemesio[b]Yes, but just because I don't know of any doesn't mean the statement is or is not true.
Nemesio[b]
Well, then, since you "don't know," then you probably shouldn't say anything.
[b]How are they unique?[b]
Seriously? Nations rising and falling dependent upon their treatment of the Jew doesn't seem unusual to you? Their very existence to this day, in light of their history doesn't strike you as odd? The historical anti-Semitism doesn't seem different than the temporary hardships other races have had to endure from time to time?
[b]Where are these contracts stipulated? [b]
Try Genesis 12:2 & 3, for starters. This reference covers the Abrahamic Covenant, and its five parts are unconditional. Other references for this are available, if needed.
Next, go to Deuteronomy 30:1-10 for the Palestinian Covenant, regarding land grants, and related.
Then, go to Psalm 89:3-4, 19-37 for the Davidic Covenant.
Then, head to Jeremiah 31:31-40, Hebrews 8:8-13; 10:16-17 for the New Covenant.
The Mosaic Covenant should be relatively easy to find by this point.
Just for giggles, in my opinion, if one book had more affect on the world than all other books combined, I would call that book the most important book in the world. And if that book dedicated five-sixths of its content to a concentration on one race of people, I would call that race unique.
If you like, we can discuss the people that have fallen due to overt anti-Semitism. For instance, the Amalekites, Assyrians, Syrians, Phoenicians, and the Philistines.
[b]I can say that the Africans have a magical contract[b]
Feel free.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Well, then, since you "don't know," then you probably shouldn't say anything.
It's clear that you don't know whether or not other races do or do not have contracts
with God, so I'd recommend you take your own advice. Either that, or tell us about
just two other races that you've studied closely and how they fail the litmus test.
Seriously? Nations rising and falling dependent upon their treatment of the Jew doesn't seem unusual to you? Their very existence to this day, in light of their history doesn't strike you as odd? The historical anti-Semitism doesn't seem different than the temporary hardships other races have had to endure from time to time?
No, it doesn't. Certainly anti-Semitism has existed for a long time, but racial strife between
and amongst peoples is nothing remarkable. The Jews are an old and literate culture, so we
can trace this tension pretty far. Do you really think that the Native Americans have suffered
'temporary hardship?' Or Africans? What about aboriginal Austrialians?
Try Genesis 12:2 & 3, for starters. This reference covers the Abrahamic Covenant, and its five parts are unconditional. Other references for this are available, if needed.
Let's start here.
Genesis 12:2-3 reads:
I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you;
I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.
All the communities of the earth shall find blessing in you.
How has this been fulfilled in Judiasm and not, say, in the English?
Can you name a people who was blessed because they blessed Jews, or cursed
because they cursed them? Which communities of the earth found blessing
in the Jews?
Nemesio
Originally posted by ivanhoeThis is one of those most contradictory promises by God. Basically it could be stated as : I will ensure that you always survive but also that you suffer as much as possible.
God made a Covenant with the Jewish people that cannot be broken, not by trying to kill and destroy one party or trying to deny, kill or crucify the other Party.
If you see the existance of Jews as proof that there is a God then surely God must be Chinese because they are by far the most successfull race!
Originally posted by NemesioEither that, or tell us about
just two other races that you've studied closely and how they fail the litmus test.
Sorry, you've already lost that logic 'constuct.' Do try another of your diversionary tactics, won't you?
Do you really think that the Native Americans have suffered
'temporary hardship?'
Not at all. But you are hardly comparing what has occured with any of the groups you mentioned with what has occured THROUGH THE AGES with the Jew? Let's leave the disingenuosity out the argument, shall we?
How has this been fulfilled in Judiasm and not, say, in the English?
Forgive me, I had momentarily forgotten I was dealing with a hairsplitter, who would rather get bogged down in the shape of the tree than deal with the tree itself. In my haste to give you the promises, I forgot to mention the verse immediately preceding the same. Namely:
1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
Although this translation is in English, it was originally given to a Chaldean, most likely in vernacular which he (Abram, later Abraham) would be able to understand. However, I believe this should clear up any confusion you may have in applying the previously quoted text.
Can you name a people who was blessed because they blessed Jews, or cursed
because they cursed them?
Alexander did pretty well by treating them respect. Spain was prosperous and a world power, prior to 1492. The US has done well so far. As far as cursing goes, I gave you plenty to chew on with the people mentioned in the previous post. However, you can always consider the Third Reich in that group, as well.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Sorry, you've already lost that logic 'constuct.' Do try another of your diversionary tactics, won't you?
Well, if by 'lost' you mean I exposed a totally unsubstantiated claim you've made, then,
sure.
Not at all. But you are hardly comparing what has occured with any of the groups you mentioned with what has occured THROUGH THE AGES with the Jew? Let's leave the disingenuosity out the argument, shall we?
Again, the reason that the Jews have suffered hardship through the ages is because
they have recorded histories going back. The Africans and Asians have histories of
hardship, but not all of the former are recorded because they were an oral tradition.
Have you really studied some of the genocide that was part of the Asian heritage?
The Jews' situation is hardly unique.
Forgive me, I had momentarily forgotten I was dealing with a hairsplitter, who would rather get bogged down in the shape of the tree than deal with the tree itself.
In your sarcastic arrogance, you misunderstood my question. How have the
promises mentioned to Abram (Abraham) been fulfilled in the Jewish people
in a way different than the same promises would apply to say the English people,
or the American people?
Alexander did pretty well by treating them respect. Spain was prosperous and a world power, prior to 1492. The US has done well so far. As far as cursing goes, I gave you plenty to chew on with the people mentioned in the previous post. However, you can always consider the Third Reich in that group, as well.
Spain is prosperous now, and so is Germany. Iran has made a pact against Israel, and they
are pretty prosperous. I think you are just looking at convenient moments in history to validate
a vague claim and calling it a unique covenant.
The fact of the matter is the Jewish people, while rich in heritage and culture with lots to
recommend them, are no more special than the French or Polish. All of them have made
special accomplishments. All of them have had enemies that hurt them at one time or
another. All of them have developed autonomy. The Jews are among scores of ethnic
heritages blessed by God and what they have accomplished in light of that is comparable.
All can be said to have friends 'blessed' by God and enemies 'cursed' by God. It just depends
on how hyperfocused you want to be on the situation (and you, indeed, are hyperfocused).
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI exposed a totally unsubstantiated claim you've made, then,
sure.
Whatever gets you through the night.
the reason that the Jews have suffered hardship through the ages is because they have recorded histories going back.
Glory be! Those ignorant fools could have avoided all the persecution, all the anti-Semitism simply by not recording any of it. Why weren't you around in Hitler's Germany? Foolish talk.
in a way different than the same promises would apply to say the English people,
or the American people?
Well, for one, as stated repeatedly (but to no avail) the promises were given to a specific person and group of people. These promises have both near and far fulfillment. Some of these have already taken place, some are in the process, some are future.
For any group of people to lay claim to a similar history, they would have to have that all-important prelude: the promise! Prosperity, persecution and other ingredients have been part of every society. Which of those races began with a promise?
Which of those races have been gathered, dispersed, re-gathered, dispersed, etc., faced large-scale persecution from every society they found themselves in, prospered those societies while prospering themselves, etc.?
Spain is prosperous now, and so is Germany. Iran has made a pact against Israel
Ah, Spain, that veritable super-power. Great example. This was THE super-power, akin to G8 rolled into one. A little de Torquemada, and insta-changa, no Armada!
And Germany is doing better, now. How about that Third Reich, though?
Keep your eye on Iran.
BTW, just conveniently blaze past the other races posted earlier.
Are you even paying attention to what you're writing?
Sure, the Jews claim that God has bestowed a special favor and promise.
The question is, has this promise been fulfilled? Is Israel more powerful than
Spain, Germany or England? If the promise was made and kept, then it should
be distinct from any other country. As of yet, I do not see that it is. That is,
if we cannot show that Israel has in fact had any clear distinction from any other
country with respect to the claims made, then how do we know that the promise
isn't simply being fulfilled for all people -- a figurative, worldly Israel, rather than
a literal one?
Again, the reason we know of the persecution of the Jews is because there is
a record of it by the Jews. We know that the Mayan people were persecuted
but we don't have any record of it, except through their persecutors who are
going to present a gentle version of history (like the Americans do of their
genocide of the Natives).
These promises have both near and far fulfillment. Some of these have already taken place, some are in the process, some are future.
In regards to the covenant described above in Genesis, what 'near or far fulfillment'
has take place, is process, and is yet to be fulfilled? These are the critical questions.
You keep asserting that these magical things have happened to the Jews, but you
refuse to say what. Either they are special things that have happened to only them
and are truly unique and signs of blessing, or they are not. But until you iterate them,
your claims cannot be validated. That's what I keep trying to get you to do: show me
that the Jews are a special people blessed by God.
You said that they dispersed, gathered, dispersed, &c. Was this part of the prophetic
covenant described somewhere? If so, where?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioAre you even paying attention to what you're writing?
Rich.
The question is, has this promise been fulfilled?
See your own post, quoted above. The promises have both near and far fulfillments. Let's break them down, shall we?
"I will make of thee a great nation" Check
"I will bless thee" Check
"And make thy name great" Check
"And thou shalt be a blessing" Check
"In thee (a Messianic reference) shall all families of the earth be blessed" Check
And this was just the first one! Checkmate.
Is Israel more powerful than Spain, Germany or England?
Overall, or specifically, as a nation?
we know of the persecution of the Jews is because there is
a record of it by the Jews.
So much for objective history, I suppose. In your world, all of history is written by the subjugated? Guess the rest of the world needs to rethink things a bit.
You keep asserting that these magical things have happened to the Jews
Yes. 'Magical things' like survival, prosperity in the face of overwhelming odds, unprecedented persecution on a global scale. 'Magical.' Have you been an actual participant in a debate before? You seem a tad ill-prepared.
Was this part of the prophetic
covenant described somewhere?
No. These were not part of the contracts, per se. There were provisions within the same which stipulated the downside to their participation. As mentioned, four of the contracts were unconditional.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
"I will make of thee a great nation" Check
"I will bless thee" Check
"And make thy name great" Check
"And thou shalt be a blessing" Check
"In thee (a Messianic reference) shall all families of the earth be blessed" Check
I can read. In what way has Israel become a great nation as distinct from England?
In what way has God blessed Israel in a way distinct from England?
In what way has Israel's name been made great in a way distinct from England?
In what way has Israel been made a blessing as distinct from England?
Do you get the picture? Every country can claim greatness. Every country can claim
blessedness.
A master-debator such as yourself should find such questions to be simple to answer.
Nemesio