Originally posted by FreakyKBH"I will make of thee a great nation" Check
Let's break them down, shall we?
Nope not fulfilled. Israel has never been a great nation.
"I will bless thee" Check
You contradict yourself. How can you claim that the Jews are both the most persecuted race in the world and also blessed ???
"And make thy name great" Check
I have never considered the name of Isreal great.
"And thou shalt be a blessing" Check
"In thee (a Messianic reference) shall all families of the earth be blessed" Check
So all the families of the earth are blessed ? Explain how that gets a check.
And this was just the first one! Checkmate
So where are the others because this one is not a checkmate at all.
For any group of people to lay claim to a similar history, they would have to have that all-important prelude: the promise! Prosperity, persecution and other ingredients have been part of every society. Which of those races began with a promise?
Many Kings and prophets in the past and present have claimed that they have been promised something by God. Those that got what they wanted claimed devine intervention and those that didnt quickly get forgoten.
Which of those races have been gathered, dispersed, re-gathered, dispersed, etc., faced large-scale persecution from every society they found themselves in, prospered those societies while prospering themselves, etc.?
So where is any of this promised in the Bible? And are you sure that Jews have faced large-scale persecution in every society the find themselves in? That is definately a false statement.
Originally posted by NemesioIn what way has Israel become a great nation as distinct from England?
You've already won, as I would not have thought to classify England as a race of people. The national aspect of the promise was directed to Abram's offspring becoming a race and (future) nation. However, on the national side, England's place of prominence is behind her, while Israel's is still ahead.
Promises two, three and four have obviously been manifest, as Abram was personally blessed; his name is in the annals of history forever, yet reverberates today across the globe; and he remains a blessing today as the patriarch of millions of living Jews, Christians and Muslims.
The final promise was fulfilled in the life, death and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Of the two, which has had more impact on the world: England or Abram/Abraham? No slam on England, as she ruled the world at one point, but what sprang from Abraham has had more blessing, has shaped more of human history than ANY other race on the face of the planet.
Consider the land mass of what is currently recognized as the nation of Israel today. Consider the amount of people living there. Consider the world's attention on that small spot of the globe. Consider how many similar situations the Jews have found themselves in since leaving Egypt, how pivotal they have been in each of those situations.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI have never considered the name of Isreal great.
Somehow, I doubt your assessment will have much impact on the historical record.
So all the families of the earth are blessed ? Explain how that gets a check.
I guess God must have overestimated the blessing of receiving eternal life, salvation from hell, etc.
Those that got what they wanted claimed devine intervention and those that didnt quickly get forgoten.
Agreed: they've all been forgotten. FYI, forgotten = not great.
Jews have faced large-scale persecution in every society the find themselves in?
Not yet in the US, thankfully. But historically, where they have been persecuted, the nations have lost. Where they are blessed, the nations prosper.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThere is hardly any point discussing the genuineness of prophesies yet to be fullfilled.
However, on the national side, England's place of prominence is behind her, while Israel's is still ahead.
Promises two, three and four have obviously been manifest, as Abram was personally blessed; his name is in the annals of history forever, yet reverberates today across the globe; and he remains a blessing today as the patriarch of millions of living Jews, Christians and Muslims.
Being in the annals of history is not necesarily a blessing(Hitler) and forever is a very long time.
There is actually no evidence that he is the patriarch of anyone. Also there are many many more people who have become patriarchs, for example some Chinese person living at about the same time as Abraham has cirtainly got more decendants.
The final promise was fulfilled in the life, death and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is circular logic. If you believe in the reserection then you must already believe in the covenant !
No slam on England, as she ruled the world at one point, but what sprang from Abraham has had more blessing, has shaped more of human history than ANY other race on the face of the planet.
You still havent explained how all this persecution adds up to blessing!
Consider the land mass of what is currently recognized as the nation of Israel today. Consider the amount of people living there. Consider the world's attention on that small spot of the globe. Consider how many similar situations the Jews have found themselves in since leaving Egypt, how pivotal they have been in each of those situations.
And the Lord said to Abraham "I shall make your decendants notorious trouble makers known throughout the globe" and it was done.
Originally posted by twhiteheadBeing in the annals of history is not necesarily a blessing(Hitler) and forever is a very long time.
The promise leans away from notoriety, and more toward greatness, thus the actual use of the word, "great." Hitler will be forgotten, eventually, except as a temporary blot. Abraham will remain, as he does today, in the record of human history as one of the greatest men to ever live.
There is actually no evidence that he is the patriarch of anyone.
Try telling that to the millions of people who call him just that: patriarch. Trying to be as gentle as possible, but is it possible that you aren't paying attention to what you are saying?
If you believe in the reserection then you must already believe in the covenant !
The resurrection is a matter of public record, has been publicly scrutinized for two thousand years, and stands to this day. What have you to refute the record?
You still havent explained how all this persecution adds up to blessing!
Persecution was not being touched on in that point, but rather, blessing. The Jews have received, however, both.
And the Lord said to Abraham "I shall make your decendants notorious trouble makers known throughout the globe" and it was done.
Spoken like the true anti-Semite you have attempted to hide. Good luck with that.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
You've already won, as I would not have thought to classify England as a race of people.
The English aren't a group of people with a distinct cultural heritage? Remember, the Jews
weren't initially a single group of people. They are disparate races (like Americans) that were
unified by Moses through the Law. So, while the Jews have a 'consistency' amongst their
people now, this was not always the case.
The national aspect of the promise was directed to Abram's offspring becoming a race and (future) nation. However, on the national side, England's place of prominence is behind her, while Israel's is still ahead.
So, England has been blessed. And, at present, England is certainly more blessed
than Israel, if economics, safety, and resources are to be a judge. So, how can this prophecy
be fairly evaluated, if the first country I picked off the top of my head seems to be roughly
as blessed, if not more blessed.
Promises two, three and four have obviously been manifest, as Abram was personally blessed; his name is in the annals of history forever, yet reverberates today across the globe; and he remains a blessing today as the patriarch of millions of living Jews, Christians and Muslims.
Absolutely. Abram/Abraham was a critical figure in history. But so was Churchhill.
So was King James. So was Queen Elizabeth. So? Both the Jewish and English have
people who were critical in the development of history.
So, again, we don't see that Israel is any more or less blessed than England.
The final promise was fulfilled in the life, death and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Interesting that, in this Jewish prophecy, the Jews don't see it this way.
Of the two, which has had more impact on the world: England or Abram/Abraham? No slam on England, as she ruled the world at one point, but what sprang from Abraham has had more blessing, has shaped more of human history than ANY other race on the face of the planet.
I can think of many people at least as important as Abraham in terms of their impacts on
the course of human development: Jesus, Gutenberg, Charlemagne, Salk, Newton, Bach,
Columbus, Aristotle...I mean, the list goes on and on. Sure, Abraham was important, but
so were a million other people over the course of history.
Consider the land mass of what is currently recognized as the nation of Israel today. Consider the amount of people living there. Consider the world's attention on that small spot of the globe. Consider how many similar situations the Jews have found themselves in since leaving Egypt, how pivotal they have been in each of those situations.
Consider the land mass that is currently New York City. Consider the world's attention on that
small spot. Consider the land mass that is currently Iraq. Consider the world's attention on that
small spot. I mean, c'mon, there are lots of important areas -- even more important than Israel.
Nothing in your defense of Israel's unique importance indicates any conclusive favor by God.
We could make the same case for New Yorkers, or the English, or any of dozens of other groups
of people with identifiable cultural characteristics.
Nemesio
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThe resurrection is a matter of public record, has been publicly scrutinized for two thousand years, and stands to this day. What have you to refute the record?
That's pretty funny. "The Bible" is not a public record, it has been "scrutinized" only by those with a vested interest in proclaiming it as fact, and only stands today because enough people have been duped into believing it as (pardon me) Gospel. What have you, beyond the bible itself, to show that Jesus even existed, let alone was "resurrected"? The usual suspects, I presume?
Originally posted by David CCome on, you know better - they've got some non-peer reviewed, non referenced websites, written only yesterday by some crackpot minister living in Texas.
[b]The resurrection is a matter of public record, has been publicly scrutinized for two thousand years, and stands to this day. What have you to refute the record?
That's pretty funny. "The Bible" is not a public record, it has been "scrutinized" only by those with a vested interest in proclaiming it as fact, and only stands today because enough ...[text shortened]... , to show that Jesus even existed, let alone was "resurrected"? The usual suspects, I presume?[/b]
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Originally posted by NemesioWhere to start? Oh, I suppose we'll go chronologically, as there is no other order involved in the post.
The English aren't a group of people with a distinct cultural heritage?
Let's not mix the metaphors with the similes. The Jewish race is the youngest of the races, beginning not as a cultural distinction, but as a racial distinction, circa Abram crossing the river (pun intended, but likely lost on all but a few of the readers). Traced from his lineage, they were distinct nationally with their departure (under Moses' leadership) out of Egypt.
All that begatting in the time between Adam and Abram was begatting of Gentiles, until Abram became Abraham, the first Hebrew, and did his begatting of the first-born Jew, Jacob. This introduces the principal "they of Israel are not all Israel,' or, there is racial Israel and there is spiritual Israel.
So, how can this prophecy
be fairly evaluated
As stated earlier, there are near and far fulfillment aspects of some prophecy. While Israel was at one point a great nation, flourishing with promise, she never occupied the land as instructed. Never executed what she was commanded, to the degree instructed. She will, at some point, become the focal government of the planet. While Israel today fulfills no prophetic promises, nor is her current 're-gathering' in any way a sign of portent, Israel today commands much more world attention than any other country, proportionately.
Both the Jewish and English have
people who were critical in the development of history.
Using your scale of values, perhaps Barney Rubble should have been mentioned, as well. Many people have been players on the stage. None, outside of the humanity of Christ, loom more impressively than Abraham. At least on one level, Churchill and I have something in common: he would scoff at anyone putting him in the same sphere of influence as the father of the Hebrews.
Interesting that, in this Jewish prophecy, the Jews don't see it this way.
They will.
Originally posted by David C"The Bible" is not a public record, it has been "scrutinized" only by those with a vested interest in proclaiming it as fact,
Not a public record, how so?
Apparently, Francois-Marie Arouet, aka Voltaire, had such a vested interest? Marx? Hitler? Your gun is loaded with blanks. Take cover.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThe bible is not a history textbook, in spite of what you may have been led to believe.
Not a public record, how so?
Apparently, Francois-Marie Arouet, aka Voltaire, had such a vested interest? Marx? Hitler? Your gun is loaded with blanks. Take cover.
I'm not sure why you've brought up Voltaire, who 'scrutinized' the bible and found it wanting. Or Marx, who likewise realized it wasn't useful for his ends, but rather an opiate. The Hitler reference is most puzzling...did you not know he was a devout Christian?
Originally posted by David COr Marx, who likewise realized it wasn't useful for his ends, but rather an opiate.
The bible is not a history textbook, in spite of what you may have been led to believe.
I'm not sure why you've brought up Voltaire, who 'scrutinized' the bible and found it wanting. Or Marx, who likewise realized it wasn't useful for his ends, but rather an opiate. The Hitler reference is most puzzling...did you not know he was a devout Christian?
Aren't you confusing Marx with Lenin?
Originally posted by David CI'm not sure why you've brought up Voltaire, who 'scrutinized' the bible and found it wanting.
You posted that the Bible is only scrutinized by those wishing to claim it as fact. Voltaire, that irrascible rabble rouser, was hell-bent on proclaiming it fiction. He went so far as to say that society would be purged of the Bible, and to that end he stridently endeavored. Funny, some years after his death, Bibles were being printed in one of his former residences.
Or Marx, who likewise realized it wasn't useful for his ends
Here is another person who scrutinized the Bible, yet not influenced by the desire to claim it as true.
The Hitler reference is most puzzling...did you not know he was a devout Christian?
A couple of problems with this part of your post.
One, as with the previous historical figure mentioned, Addie was not scrutinizing the Bible in order to claim its veracity (at least not during the celebrity phase of his life), but rather scoured it for any use it could lend his agenda.
Two, Addie was not a devout Christian. It is impossible for a Christian (reversionistic, or not) to be demon possessed, as Addie certainly was for the last part of his miserable life. While he may have attended church in perfunctionary display, he was by no means a Christian, let alone "devout."
The bible is not a history textbook, in spite of what you may have been led to believe.
Flail away, by all means, and do what no one before you has been able to do: show us all how the Bible is not historically (or otherwise) accurate. You'll be revered throughout the ages for liberating us all from its vice-like grip. Just like, oh, I dunno, Voltaire.
Originally posted by David CWas he? Do you have any references to his attending Mass every Sunday? Or records of his having spent at least an hour in prayer every day?
The Hitler reference is most puzzling...did you not know he was a devout Christian?
Or are you going to give us references from his public speeches - the "I was an altar boy" Kerry-type give-me-all-your-Catholic-votes type reference?