A cruel god?

Originally posted by specs57
Calvinists are mistaken

How would you know? Isn;t God ineffable? You cannot know his will, only an interpretation of it.

Originally posted by specs57
God is not a flying spaghetti monster;

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

So if God created man in his own image, he must look something like us (not a flying spaghetti monster)

Either that it the bible is a load of cr@p

Originally posted by scottishinnz
How would you know? Isn;t God ineffable? You cannot know his will, only an interpretation of it.

This is not the message the Bible gives us. I can think of numerous passages that contradict this position and not one that supports it.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
This is not the message the Bible gives us. I can think of numerous passages that contradict this position and not one that supports it.

So you know God's mind then?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So you know God's mind then?

Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord; thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

God tells us what his mind is concerning this. This is just one of a hundred verses that refutes your position.

SO god only has 100 (or so) thoughts? I mean, maybe it shouldn;t be called the Bible, but 'God, the autobiography'

Originally posted by scottishinnz
SO god only has 100 (or so) thoughts? I mean, maybe it shouldn;t be called the Bible, but 'God, the autobiography'

God created the universe so how can we know his thoughts? In regards to your position, God refutes it directly throughout the Bible.

Is.55:8-9. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The Bible was never intended to totally explain God’s mind. This doesn’t mean that we cannot know his intentions regarding certain things.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
God created the universe so how can we know his thoughts? In regards to your position, God refutes it directly throughout the Bible.

Is.55:8-9. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thought ...[text shortened]... plain God’s mind. This doesn’t mean that we cannot know his intentions regarding certain things.

Sooo, you know an interpretation of God's mind then? Not actually God's mind though?

Since you don;t know God's mind, and only in fact an interpretation of it, and the Calvinists also have an interpretation of it, this doesn't make you right and them wrong.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Sooo, you know an interpretation of God's mind then? Not actually God's mind though?

Since you don;t know God's mind, and only in fact an interpretation of it, and the Calvinists also have an interpretation of it, this doesn't make you right and them wrong.

You’re trying to confuse this when it needn’t be confusing. God has infinite intelligence/wisdom and knows all kinds of things that we don’t, again, the whole creation thing. This doesn’t mean that we cannot know what his intentions are regarding us.

Show me a place in the Bible where it says that God takes great pleasure in creating people so that they can be tortured forever?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
You’re trying to confuse this when it needn’t be confusing. God has infinite intelligence/wisdom and knows all kinds of things that we don’t, again, the whole creation thing. This doesn’t mean that we cannot know what his intentions are regarding us.

Show me a place in the Bible where it says that God takes great pleasure in creating people so that they can be tortured forever?

Were I a Calvinist then I probably would. But I'm not. I'm suggesting that your religion has interpreted the bible in one way, and they have interpreted it in a different way. Without definitive proof you can;t say one is right and the other is wrong.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Show me a place in the Bible where it says that God takes great pleasure in creating people so that they can be tortured forever?

Why would torturing forever be necessary for cruelty? How about
torturing at all?

Take the Job incident, or even Abraham. God could have accomplished
His goal any of a variety of other ways (given that He is omnipotent), but
did so at the expense of one of his beloved, his prophets.

If God derives no pleasure from it, and it is within His control to manipulate
it, then why does it persist? Cruelty or at least callousness is really the only
explanation.*

Nemesio

edit: *if you insist that the Bible be read literally. If you take the story of
Job as a metaphor, you suffer from no such problems.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Were I a Calvinist then I probably would. But I'm not. I'm suggesting that your religion has interpreted the bible in one way, and they have interpreted it in a different way. Without definitive proof you can;t say one is right and the other is wrong.

I can agree that the Bible is interpreted in many different ways. It’s my belief that nobody knows the truth until they find God. As I haven’t found God yet, you are correct, I can’t say for sure.

What I can say is that this is not the message the Bible gives as I understand it. The scripture seems to support this.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
I can agree that the Bible is interpreted in many different ways. It’s my belief that nobody knows the truth until they find God. As I haven’t found God yet, you are correct, I can’t say for sure.

What I can say is that this is not the message the Bible gives as I understand it. The scripture seems to support this.

Cool cool, happy with that.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Why would torturing forever be necessary for cruelty? How about
torturing at all?

Take the Job incident, or even Abraham. God could have accomplished
His goal any of a variety of other ways (given that He is omnipotent), but
did so at the expense of one of his beloved, his prophets.

If God derives no pleasure from it, and it is within His cont ...[text shortened]... read literally. If you take the story of
Job as a metaphor, you suffer from no such problems.[/b]

Why would torturing forever be necessary for cruelty? How about
torturing at all?

I agree, it is cruel. Consider how cruel people in this world can get. People torture, molest, rape, kill, etc, etc, That which is not forgiven has to be repaid. Reap what you sow.

This is part of the learning process, but it doesn’t have to be. We can choose not to be cruel. If we learn the lesson the easy way then the suffering is not necessary.

Take the Job incident, or even Abraham. God could have accomplished
His goal any of a variety of other ways (given that He is omnipotent), but
did so at the expense of one of his beloved, his prophets.

It does seem that that prophets get picked on a lot. Jesus died for our sins, but there are plenty who just get persecuted. This is a question that I have for God as well. Why do the ones who are closest to him suffer so? Jesus says that we are blessed when we are persecuted because of him, but this doesn’t really explain much.

It may have something to do with Karma, or reap what you sow. It may be that God’s work is accomplished through their suffering. We have the scripture after all. Maybe it’s a test. Who knows? What I do know is that when we find God he will answer our questions. It will make sense.

If God derives no pleasure from it, and it is within His control to manipulate
it, then why does it persist? Cruelty or at least callousness is really the only
explanation.

No, it’s not the only explanation. Why is somebody born deformed and made to suffer? Perhaps in his last life he deserved this and died peacefully. This is just speculation.

edit: *if you insist that the Bible be read literally…

I don’t. Even the self-proclaimed literalists don’t read the Bible literally. We all pick and choose what we like and ignore or explain away what we don’t. Consider blindfaith for example.

It's late and I'm turning in. I'll be back tomorrow.

Originally posted by specs57
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

So if God created man in his own image, he must look something like us (not a flying spaghetti monster)

You seem to be ascribing sense organs (eyes) to God and assuming that he looks just like a person. That is tantamount to idolatry!

The Divine Image makes more sense to me as a geometric ratio than as a picture to stick on your wall.