A hellish responsibility

Originally posted by FabianFnas

If anyone, supernatural or not, let people burn in hell for eternity - isn't that the most evil thing to do? I cannot think of anyone more evil to do this.

It occurs to me that as those born in the fall and under the kingdom of darkness (until we are transferred) we have a vested interest in rebelling against God.

If you were to collect a congress of rapists and tell them to decide what the penalty for raping should be, they would have a bias towards getting away with it. They may decide that there should be NO penalty for rape. Or perhaps they would decide the punishment should not be to harsh.

Man has a vested interest in getting away with rejecting God. But the ultimate penalty is not the decision of the Devil, or of his angels, or of his demons, or of fallen sinners lined up under him who refuse Jesus Christ as their salvation.

The penalty is God's responsibility. And His saving of us was His responsibility also. And He did that work.

Some may argue that God should recuse Himself from the last judgment based on a personal interest in not being insulted. There is no higher court. There is no higher goodness. There is no higher justice. And of course there is no higher love and willingness to forgive - righteously forgive.

Originally posted by divegeester
[b]I've no idea, but he wasn't being burnt alive in a furnace in order to be kept alive was he.

I've no idea, but he wasn't being burnt alive in a furnace in order to be kept alive was he.

The prophet Samuel was dead but death was a lower level or plane of existence. Death was not non-existence.

The three Hebrew young men, friends of Daniel were kept alive in a furnace of fire. Were they not? And they came out without so much of a singe upon their garments. See Daniel chapter 3.

Perhaps you have no sober fear of God's power to do whatever He needs to do. But I read about this and realize God's power to regulate the effect of any burning even upon a living person. Should I consider that this could only be His ability in a positive sense? Is there any reason I should logically reject it could be His ability in a negative punishing sense also ?

Now why don't you see if you can adhere to the question in the OP aside from your pouty deflections.

No divegester, you don't dodge the examination of your underlying presupposition with a "pouty question" dismissal.

Death = non-existence just cannot be established in the Bible. That means the in death punishment is apparently possible. The lost are not kept alive but they exist and are kept under punishment. Didn't the New Testament say that God knew how to keep the ungodly under punishment ? (Second Peter 2:9)

Even if they WERE being kept alive the experience of the three Hebrew boys in Daniel 3 proves that God has power to perform that if He wanted to.

The "second death" is punishment beyond the first death. As to the OP God is responsible for delivering the consequences of the man's choice.

Now why don't you see if you can adhere to the question in the OP aside from your pouty deflections.

I understand the presuppositions of Annihilation and prefer to examine them directly up front, knowing that you will likely flood the discourse with strong appeals to emotion, clouding some important aspects of the truth.

Originally posted by sonship
The prophet Samuel was dead but death was a lower level or plane of existence. Death was not non-existence...

Dodge, deflect, dodge deflect...

Are you going to adhere to the question in my OP. Who is responsible for the eternal burning of billions of people in hell?

Are you too embarrassed of your beliefs to answer a simple question?

Originally posted by divegeester
Who is primarily responsibile for all of the billions of people being supernaturally kept alive and burnt in hell for eternity while Jesus and the angels spectate. Not annihilated, not vapourised, burnt alive, tormented for all eternity.

So, is responsibility for this carnage attributed to your version of Jesus the Lamb, or is it the responsibility o ...[text shortened]... angels, and in the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment will go up forever.[/i]

"he shall be tormented..." Who is the "he" referring to?

Originally posted by divegeester

Are you suggesting that a human being can withstand being burnt alive for eternity by themselves with their lifespan of 3 score and 10?

I am first agreeing with anyone who reads about the lake of fire and if horrified.
There is no getting around the dread that it invokes whether you believe it or not.

God has the power to regulate the effect of any fire on a man. The third chapter of Daniel proves that, concerning the three Hebrews thrown alive into Nebuchadnezzar fiery furnace. They came out without a singe. Why should I not believe that God could adjust or regulate the effect either way, negatively or positively if He wished ?

This is not saying i understand the science of the matter. This is a confession that I should believe that what you propose is not a problem to the authority and power of God.

By the way, when the Devil is cast into the lake of fire, the false prophet and the Antichrist are still there after 1,000 years.

" And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

The word "they" indicates that a thousand years of fire did not make the Antichrist and the False Prophet NON-EXISTENT. Correct? Otherwise it would not say that "THEY" will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Who is responsible for the billions of people being burnt alive for eternity, Jesus or the people themselves?

The same Person who is responsible for saving billions (if there be billions) is responsible for condemning billions (if there be billions).

Now let us put a question to you. If in the end you see that humans do go to the eternal punishment of an eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels, and you don't like that, will you ask God to send you also ?

I mean will you prefer rather to be with Satan and his angels than with the God and Christ whom Satan has slandered, accused, blasphemed, insulted, rebelled against for so long?

Will you prefer to cast your lot with Satan to join Satan rather than be with God and His saved ones, against whom you accuse for unrighteously [edited] eternally punishing the lost ?

If you judge God as unrighteous in eternal punishment and you turn out to be wrong, will you request of Jesus Christ to leave His kingdom and cast your eternal destiny with Satan instead ?

Originally posted by divegeester
Are you going to adhere to the question in my OP. Who is responsible for the eternal burning of billions of people in hell?

Are you too embarrassed of your beliefs to answer a simple question?

Are you too embarrassed of your beliefs to answer a simple question?

Oh, I am answering all the questions here I would prefer not to.

If you turn out to be wrong and God does eternally punish the unsaved, will you request to join them ?

Will you delight to be wrongfully punished forever rather than be with a God and Christ, who you agree with Satan, is unrighteous and unjust ?

It is Satan the Devil who from ancient, ancient times slandered the motive of God's heart.
Will you choose his philosophy to be right after-all ?

If you turn out to be wrong and God does eternally punish the unsaved, will you request to join them ?

Will you delight to be wrongfully punished forever rather than be with a God and Christ, who you agree with Satan, is unrighteous and unjust ?

It is Satan the Devil who from ancient, ancient times slandered the motive of God's heart.
Will you choose his philosophy to be right after-all ?

Not .... quite .... the slam dunk theology you thought it should be, Divegeester ?
We're dealing with profound issues.

I take your hesitation to answer this last as an indication you realize it is not QUITE the open and closed case you imagined - eternal destinies.

And though I may regret it latter - I respect your hesitation. It is not an easy question to answer. Like your question to me was not that easy either.

Do we have some kind of mutual understanding now at this point, at least ?

Originally posted by sonship
The same Person who is responsible for saving billions (if there be billions) is responsible for condemning billions (if there be billions).

So to be clear on your ideology on this:

Jesus creates mankind
Jesus loves mankind
Jesus permits Satan to interfere and screw up mankind
Jesus comes as a man and dies to pay the price for all sin
Jesus calls for believers in him
Jesus creates eternal hell of burning for those he loves who don't, won't or can't believe in him
Jesus spectates the eternal carnage with his angels

And you think this somehow makes perfect justice, makes sense, is coherent?

Originally posted by sonship
I take your hesitation to answer this last as an indication you realize it is not QUITE the open and closed case you imagined - eternal destinies.

What hesitation?
I'm not on here 24/7!

Originally posted by sonship

I've no idea, but he wasn't being burnt alive in a furnace in order to be kept alive was he.

The prophet [b]Samuel was dead but death was a lower level or plane of existence. Death was not non-existence.

The three Hebrew young men, friends of Daniel were kept alive in a furnace of fire. Were they not? And they came out w ...[text shortened]... lood the discourse with strong appeals to emotion, clouding some important aspects of the truth.[/b]

You are one very mixed up Christian dude.

Originally posted by sonship
If you turn out to be wrong and God does eternally punish the unsaved, will you request to join them ?

You're asking me to speculate on how I'd react in a supernatural situation that I don't believe will ever exist?

Originally posted by divegeester
You're asking me to speculate on how I'd react in a supernatural situation that I don't believe will ever exist?

Yeah .. just in case 😀

Originally posted by divegeester
You're asking me to speculate on how I'd react in a supernatural situation that I don't believe will ever exist?

Yeah .. just in case 😀

Originally posted by divegeester

So to be clear on your ideology on this:

My comments will be brief.

Jesus creates mankind

Before God created man God created the angels. The chiefest of them Day Star [Lucifer Latin] sought to make himself like the Most High and usurp the very authority of God.

It appears that God utilized this creator to be the reservoir to contain under him ALL created beings who choose to withdraw from God's will. It appears a way for God, who in His foreknowledge understood that beings with freewill might choose to have nothing to do with their Creator. This was the introduction of more than one will in the universe.
From this very ancient point there existed an opposition party to God Almighty.

It appears to me that to subsume all rebellion against the throne of God in one grand holding area Satan the archangel of greatest intelligence, by God's providence, would act as their leader.

Any objections, complaints, murmurs, slanders, accusations we may have against God are "Johnny come lately" concepts. BEFORE we held such thoughts, Satan originated them all.

Jesus loves mankind

God created man to fulfill His eternal purpose to dispense His divine life and nature into man. The creation of Adam now constituted a TRIANGLE situation. On one side is God and divine life. On the opposite side is Satan and sin and death. In the middle of these two is the newly created creature man - neutral, innocent, ready to choose which way he would go.

God has a rebel now - Satan. Rather than deal directly with the creature God created another creature to align his will with the will of God. It appears that God will not unilaterally put down Satan. It appears God will only do so in conjunction with a new being - man.

The destiny of the universe is therefore in the hands of which way the new creature man turns - towards the ancient rebel Satan or towards God. This is the significance of Adam between two trees - the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Man is therefore not a small thing. Man is very significant. He is created in the image and likeness of God to be "organically" united, blended, indwelt with, and incorporated with the uncreated Divine Person - God.

Jesus permits Satan to interfere and screw up mankind

Man was created neutral and free to choose. Man was not created evil. He was "very good" yet neutral between two sources of continuation - one God's enemy and the other God Himself.

Man was free to choose. Man was warned that the wrong choice would cause him to die.
Satan has the authority of death.

You think of death as non-existence. Biblically we should think of death as separation of one kind or another. Spiritual and physical death is not non-existence but is separation from God.

Jesus comes as a man and dies to pay the price for all sin

God became a man.
Jesus is called "the second man" and "the last Adam".

He did more than provide a redemption. He does that and much more.
He is the man, the prototype, the standard model of the man united and mingled with God for the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.

This is concise.
This is brief.

Jesus calls for believers in him

In Christ we are saved from the penalty of sin.
In Christ we are also saved from the power of sin.
In Christ we are stationed to be the continuation of the mingling of divinity and humanity.

Satan is terrified of men and women saturated with the Triune God.
He knows that this is the situation which will place him in the eternal judgment.

" Lord Jesus, I want to be saved not just to be saved from hell. I want to be saved to join Christ in the putting down of your enemy - the Slanderer, the Devil, the Accuser, the Liar and Murderer, Satan. Lord Jesus bring me into Your plan that Godmen might express Your image, exercise Your authority, and manifest Your glory for eternity in the New Jerusalem. "

This is a good prayer. We ask Christ to save us for the accomplishment of the eternal purpose of God. Praise Him for an uplifted view of the Gospel of Christ.

" Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Romans 16:20)

God will crush his ancient enemy under the feet of the builded church.

Jesus creates eternal hell of burning for those he loves who don't, won't or can't believe in him Jesus spectates the eternal carnage with his angels

Matthew 25 tells us specifically that the eternal fire / the eternal punishment was originally created for the devil and his angels.

Did I write this and insert it into the Greek New Testament ?

" Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)

The "eternal fire" (v.41) which is the same as the "eternal punishment" (v.46) was created for the devil and his angels.

And you think this somehow makes perfect justice, makes sense, is coherent?

There are still some unknown things to me. But they do not include anything causing me to think God is unjust. Therefore, I would only be echoing Scripture that His judgments are "true and righteous".

" Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God.

For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand.

And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever!" (See Rev 19:1b-3)

The important point here is that this is one of scores of places in the Bible where praises go up because of the perfect justice enacted by God. Whereas the Bible says His judgments are "true and righteous" you are wanting people to doubt that they are not true and not righteous.

So if eternal damnation turns out to be a reality will you want to join the accuser of God that his judgments are not righteous, not right, and that Satan is more right in his accusations than God is?

And again -

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy, for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 14:4)