A hellish responsibility

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But how far will one take that?

"The Lamb" is mentioned scores of time. Someone rejecting the doctrine of redemption through Christ's propitiatory sacrifice might also say "The Lamb thing is nothing. We need not believe or pay attention to it."

The "its just a sign" card can be played too far. Thus the warning in 22:18,19.

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I think the pertinent point at the beginning of this thread, that the opposite of death is not non-existence, has to stand.

Pretty much else about "hellish responsibility" is anti-climatic.

Basically Annihilation argues that any talk of God's wrath upon unbelievers should mean that "wrath" is enacted by causing them to NOT EXIST.

But death is separation in the Bible - a lower plane of existing.
God does not manifest His judgment upon the unrepentant by exempting them from existence.

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That's good for me, that you disagree with me a little.
That is good for me in gaining more of Jesus.

Before you get to Revelation though, it is already evident that physical death never meant absolute non-existence.

And if that is the case then eternal judgment can effect a person BEYOND his physical death.

By the way. I think when Hebrews says that it is reserved for men once to die and afterwards the judgment - it may not insist that only negative judgment is implied.

" And inasmuch as it is reserved for men to die once, and after this comes judgment ..." (Heb. 9:27)

I just take that to mean every human being since Adam must be judged. I don't know how God will judge in many cases.

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Actually no, the pertinent thing at the start of this thread is my question about ultimate responsibility for eternal suffering (based on playing a devil's advocacy that it actually exists in the first place).

You should have no problem answering this question. We are told quite pointedly WHO has the authority to punish beyond physical death.

I think you may have read it:

"But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing ... "

Just take in that much. The One of whom Christ speaks is Someone who "AFTER KILLING" has something else He is able to do.

" ... after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:5)

If Jesus had meant that after one dies God can throw his corpse into the garbage heap of Gehenna then that is nothing done that MAN cannot do. Since He is speaking of an authority and power BEYOND what mere man can do, He has to be speaking of an action to fear AFTER physical death has killed one.

It takes more labor to twist another meaning than to just take it as it is.

There you have your short answer - God has the ultimate responsibility.

Are you going to pretend that your question has not been addressed yet ?

You have stated that the responsibility lies with Christ, which implies that the torment he is dishing out for eternity is unjust.

Eladar has claimed that the responsibility lies with the individual humans, which implies that the billions (or whatever) of people being in hell, is either a rational choice or a failure in the efficacy of the gospel message.

Is there a contradiction of any serious consequences ? I don't think so. Say a man jumps out of a 10 story building window. The law of gravity pulls him immediately down to the pavement below.

Whose responsibility was it ?
Shall we argue that it cannot be BOTH the responsibility of the jumper AND the law of gravity ?

God is not confused about those beings who will remain unrepentant and rebellious against Him no matter what. I don't see a serious contradiction in saying it is the unbeliever's responsibility on one hand and God the Judge's on the other.

Either way, as I've been saying for years, the whole concept is incoherent.

There are things I don't like to hear. But I don't use incoherence as a reason for that.
Somehow "This is not good sense making English" has never caused a number of clear passages to disappear from my Bible.

And what exactly is incoherent about God letting every created being know that He IS God ? See how many times God says in the book of Ezekiel "And they shall know that I am Jehovah" .

You WILL know that God is God is God.
This can be wonderfully positive - the new Jerusalem;
But it can also be more than dreadfully negative too - "the second death" - "the lake of fire".

But you will know. But they will know. But all will know.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
What is the organization of hell? How many is there in the staff? (We all know the boss, of course.) Who keeps the eternal fire alive? What is the energy source? Is it environmentally friendly? Fossil or renewable?
Who created this enterprise? Did it exist before the first human? How many people are tormented there at this time?
Do we have any insights ...[text shortened]... ganization? Are there any independent sources about it, (besides the bible, quoran and thalmud)?

You think too much in human terms. You ask all the wrong questions which is grounded in believing God is limited as man is limited.

But hey, it won't be long before you can see for yourself.

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A simple acknowledgement of your error would have been fine

What error do you wish me to acknowledge ?

I acknowledge your error that Revelation even taken symbolically, still depicts eternal judgment upon the existent beyond the first death.

I acknowledge your error in attempting to water down the revelation with complaints of it being incomprehensible. There is not enough alleged "incomprehensibility" to remove the fact that " the second death" obviates punishment beyond the first death.

And it is not non-existence.

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Your version of god chooses to torture people who don't believe in him, for eternity. This is the fact.

My "version" of God is the "version" out of the mouth of Jesus Christ.

" Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (v.41)

And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)

It is Christ's "version" of God in this particular aspect in which you are in denial.
You have made an idol out of your sentiment that love forbids God to punish forever.

Your sentimentalism which you use to lamely to contradict many many passages, has become your idol.

And "business as usual" and evasion instead of clear refutation doesn't impress this poster. You started your evasion with "I don't know ". Of course you prefer to not know.

Samuel was physically dead but not non-existent.

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Still appeal to emotion only. Still no clear refuting interpretation of Matthew 25:41,46.

After the next 30 little posts you are about to make there probably will STILL be no effective rebuttal of the face value reading of Matthew 25:41,46.

Just dust off your old feeble remarks rejecting New Testament text, line them up and post them. All they indicate to me is that you are ashamed of the Lord's Jesus' words.