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    10 Jun '17 07:162 edits
    Who is primarily responsibile for all of the billions of people being supernaturally kept alive and burnt in hell for eternity while Jesus and the angels spectate. Not annihilated, not vapourised, burnt alive, tormented for all eternity.

    So, is responsibility for this carnage attributed to your version of Jesus the Lamb, or is it the responsibility of those who are being burnt?

    Rev 14:10b-11 KJV
    ...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment will go up forever.
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    10 Jun '17 10:242 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Who is primarily responsibile for all of the billions of people being supernaturally kept alive and burnt in hell for eternity while Jesus and the angels spectate. Not annihilated, not vapourised, burnt alive, tormented for all eternity.

    So, is responsibility for this carnage attributed to your version of Jesus the Lamb, or is it the responsibility o ...[text shortened]... angels, and in the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment will go up forever.[/i]
    Was Samuel being kept alive when Saul and the witch of Endor summoned up his spirit/soul from Sheol ? (First Samuel 28)

    See if you can adhere to the question aside from your appeals to strong emotion.
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    10 Jun '17 11:14
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Who is primarily responsibile for all of the billions of people being supernaturally kept alive and burnt in hell for eternity ...
    What a cruel think to do! Who is evil enough to do this?
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    10 Jun '17 11:26
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Who is primarily responsibile for all of the billions of people being supernaturally kept alive and burnt in hell for eternity while Jesus and the angels spectate. Not annihilated, not vapourised, burnt alive, tormented for all eternity.

    So, is responsibility for this carnage attributed to your version of Jesus the Lamb, or is it the responsibility o ...[text shortened]... angels, and in the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment will go up forever.[/i]
    According to the Bible only the Devil and his angels, the Beast, and the False Prophet are tormented eternally.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    10 Jun '17 11:28
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    What a cruel think to do! Who is evil enough to do this?
    The evil ones are the ones that interpret the Bible in such a way as to arrive at this doctrine... their heart is evil. They subconsciously would like this torment to happen to all nonChristians. Christians here have suggested this already.
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    10 Jun '17 11:321 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    What a cruel think to do! Who is evil enough to do this?
    Let me ask you a couple of questions too.

    A man, a world leader with extensive power, even supernatural power, will not allow anyone who does not have his mark, to buy or sell - is this evil to you ?

    A man who sits in Jewish temple in Jerusalem claiming that he is God. And if you do not acknowledge him as such you go starving, unclothed, sick, imprisoned or killed for 42 months. He is called the Antichrist in the Bible and to him Satan turns over all of his worldly authority.

    You do count that as very evil, don't you ?
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    10 Jun '17 11:34
    Originally posted by sonship
    Was [b]Samuel being kept alive when Saul and the witch of Endor summoned up his spirit/soul from Sheol ? (First Samuel 28)

    See if you can adhere to the question aside from your appeals to strong emotion.[/b]
    Maybe you should adhere to the question in the opening post rather than attempting a diversion. The issue of Samuel has no connection with the doctrine of eternal torment. If you think there is a connection then maybe you should explain why.
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    10 Jun '17 11:48
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The question has to do with divegeester's repeated claim that God supernaturally keeps people alive in the lake of fire.

    And it was a genuine question. Instead of giving him an excuse not to consider it why don't you step out of the way ?

    Divegeester, this is not a question about horrific emotional reactions. It is about your apparent dichotomy -

    Physical Life verses Non-existence. Does the Bible really teach this?
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    10 Jun '17 11:592 edits
    In First Samuel 28 God permits the apostate King Saul and a secretive witch of Endor to summon up the immaterial part of the deceased prophet Samuel from the dead.

    The plural of "gods" coming up from the earth, suggest to some interpreters that angels accompanied the immaterial soul / spirit of Samuel the prophet up from Sheol or Hades. He complains that he had preferred to have been left at peace and rest in Sheol.

    "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? And Saul said, I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines wage war against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me not by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I shall do.

    And Samuel said, Why then have you inquired of me? For Jehovah has turned away from you and become your adversary ... " (1 Sam. 28:15,16)


    Samuel was dead. Samuel was not altogether non-existent.
    Is this correct ?
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    10 Jun '17 12:001 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    The question has to do with divegeester's repeated claim that God supernaturally keeps people alive in the lake of fire.

    And it was a genuine question. Instead of giving him an excuse not to consider it why don't you step out of the way ?

    Divegeester, this is not a question about horrific emotional reactions. It is about your apparent dichotomy -

    Physical Life verses Non-existence. Does the Bible really teach this?
    What does 'genuine question' have to do with it. You are going after the argument that man has an eternal soul. That is not in the Bible. Rather than ask questions designed to trap posters, you should come out and state your case in clear simple concise language.

    Here is how.

    You think the Bible says that mans soul is eternal. I say it does not.
    - The soul that sinneth it shall die.
    - Jesus said that God can destroy souls in hell.
    - The Bible teaches that evildoers will be destroyed [not tormented].

    Can you show where the Bible says souls are eternal?
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    10 Jun '17 12:031 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    In [b]First Samuel 28 God permits the apostate King Saul and a secretive witch of Endor to summon up the immaterial part of the deceased prophet Samuel from the dead.

    The plural of "gods" coming up from the earth, suggest to some interpreters that angels accompanied the immaterial soul / spirit of Samuel the prophet up from S ...[text shortened]... ]

    Samuel was dead. Samuel was not altogether non-existent.
    Is this correct ?[/b]
    The body is dead. The lifeforce or soul survives and goes back to God.
    At the appointed time these people will be judged.
    The good and righteous enters the Kingdom of God
    The evil ones are destroyed.

    Nothing there says or implies eternal souls or eternal torment
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    10 Jun '17 12:257 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    What does 'genuine question' have to do with it. You are going after the argument that man has an eternal soul. That is not in the Bible.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    By "genuine question" I mean that while I am asking it, I too am contemplating how I would answer it myself. We're dealing with a profound subject. As I ask him I am contemplating the right answer myself.


    Rather than ask questions designed to trap posters, you should come out and state your case in clear simple concise language.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is your opinion. That we are discussing in order to see if truth can be arrived at is not necessarily setting up a "trap".

    Divegeester, if he wants to, can reply for himself.

    Here is how.

    --------------------

    I will take this as your reply and not Divegeester's by proxy.


    You think the Bible says that mans soul is eternal. I say it does not.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What I think is that God "ALONE has immortality" as Scripture teaches in First Timothy 6:16.

    So a ancient Greek style philosophy of the innate immortality of the soul I do not ascribe as a teaching of the Bible. Obviously angels live everlastingly and saved humans do also.
    So it is derived from the One who ALONE possesses the attribute of immortality - God.

    Annhilationists and Universalists often first establish a strawman argument that the Bible does not teach ancient Greek philosophy of the innate immortality of the human soul, which of course is true.


    The soul that sinneth it shall die.
    Jesus said that God can destroy souls in hell.
    The Bible teaches that evildoers will be destroyed [not tormented].

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now in Revelation 20 it speaks of TWO resurrections. These two resurrections are separated by 1,000 years. It says that the REST of the dead were not raised until the thousand years were up.

    " The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:5)


    Now one thousands years after this first resurrection another resurrection causes all those dead to appear before the Great White Throne for eternal judgment:

    "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. (v.12)

    And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (v.15)

    Is this what you are teaching me:
    1.) The dead during the thousand years who were not resurrected in the first resurrection - are then non-existent altogether.

    2.) After the thousand years they are made to exist again for just long enough to be judged.

    3.) Those not having their names in the book of life are made to again be non-existent altogether.

    So you are teaching concerning the unsaved -
    Physical life ---> non-existence ----> physical life by resurrection ----> non-existence again.

    Is that your interpretation of Revelation 20 ?


    Can you show where the Bible says souls are eternal?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No. And I do not need to.
    For I do not intend to claim that ancient Greek philosophy was precisely taught in the Bible.
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    10 Jun '17 12:46
    Rajk999 -

    Is this what you are teaching me:
    1.) The dead during the thousand years who were not resurrected in the first resurrection - are then non-existent altogether.

    2.) After the thousand years they are made to exist again for just long enough to be judged.

    3.) Those not having their names in the book of life are made to again be non-existent altogether.

    So you are teaching concerning the unsaved -
    Physical life ---> non-existence ----> physical life by resurrection ----> non-existence again.

    Is that your interpretation of Revelation 20 ?
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    10 Jun '17 13:07
    Originally posted by sonship
    Rajk999 -

    Is this what you are teaching me:
    1.) The dead during the thousand years who were not resurrected in the first resurrection - are then non-existent altogether.

    2.) After the thousand years they are made to exist again for just long enough to be judged.

    3.) Those not having their names in the book of life are made to again be n ...[text shortened]... rection ----> non-existence again.

    Is that your interpretation of Revelation 20 ?
    The universe and everything in was created by God, it is all sustained by God, and if
    God created us to be eternal beings, than we are. Where we go after judgment and how
    that plays out is also going to be according to the will of God. No matter how we think
    it is going to happen. People really should want to avoid the wrath of God, instead of
    trying to make it out to be, not so bad!
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    10 Jun '17 13:16
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    The universe and everything in was created by God, it is all sustained by God, and if
    God created us to be eternal beings, than we are. Where we go after judgment and how
    that plays out is also going to be according to the will of God. No matter how we think
    it is going to happen. People really should want to avoid the wrath of God, instead of
    trying to make it out to be, not so bad!
    Thankyou. I agree.

    As you know maybe several threads have opened up the subject of eternal punishment.
    I do need to hear from Divegeester :

    1.) Can he prove that the opposite of physical life is non-existence considering, for example, First Samuel 28.

    Maybe he's thinking about it. So let's what he says about this non-emotional aspect of the theological problem.

    2.) I need to hear if Rajk999 teaches about Revelation 20


    People really should want to avoid the wrath of God, instead of
    trying to make it out to be, not so bad!


    I would go on even further. People should want to be reconciled to God.
    People should not want to be un-reconciled to God.

    For God is a Person for whom a greater Person cannot exist.
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