A mental exercise for believers in God.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Of course they are. Ask any child.

Pffft! What do they know about science?!

Of course, I mean, for example, is it sensible to ask time related questions to non-time related phenomenon....


What was your question again?? Sorry, a few Stella Artois later...

Originally posted by scottishinnz
What was your question again?? Sorry, a few Stella Artois later...

Hic. Well, order arising from chaos is a venerable theme, all the way from the Sumerians to the chemistry lab. And all these accounts explain how order arises, but not why. It just does. How did the universe arise? Goddunit / Big Bang. Why? Dunno. Just did.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Hic. Well, order arising from chaos is a venerable theme, all the way from the Sumerians to the chemistry lab. And all these accounts explain how order arises, but not why. It just does. How did the universe arise? Goddunit / Big Bang. Why? Dunno. Just did.

Probability really. It;s not (necessarily) that stable things arise more often, they just last longer. And, well, if they last longer AND can self-replicate....

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Probability really..

But only retroactive probability, which is kind of like reading backwards into the bible to prove that Jesus was prophesied by x, y and z. You can't access that zero point. Perhaps it's a futile exercise....

Originally posted by howardgee
This is a sincere question for everybody out there who believes that God exists.
It is a thought experiment for you, so give it a good shot and please admit it if you cannot think of anything at all, as this is all a part of the exercise.

The question for you to try to answer is this:

"What evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that God does not exist?"

Irrefutable evidence.

Way back in my early 20's, before I knew God, I developed a mental exercise I would go through each night as I fell asleep. You see, I was determined to know whether or not there was a God, so I began to think.
I thought, here I am in this material universe, in space. There are three things there. Matter, the space that matter exists in, and God.
In my mind I would systematically erase or subtract each thing.
First I would imagine everything gone except the space and God. Then I would imagine that the space that all things were in is gone.
But no matter how hard I tried I could not conceive of what would remain if I imagined no God.
It seemed to me that it is impossible for there to be absolutely nothing.
Now you could say that all there is is space and matter and that these two could exist without there being a God, and if that were the case then try to imagine a realm were space and matter did not exist.
I don't think it can be done. Nor do I think that such a realm can be.
So, where did everything come from. The only answer is that everything was made.

Originally posted by josephw
Irrefutable evidence.

Way back in my early 20's, before I knew God, I developed a mental exercise I would go through each night as I fell asleep. You see, I was determined to know whether or not there was a God, so I began to think.
I thought, here I am in this material universe, in space. There are three things there. Matter, the space that matter exist ealm can be.
So, where did everything come from. The only answer is that everything was made.

You should amend that to "the only answer for ME is that everything is made"
Now that you have come to that conclusion, do you now want to pray to that maker all the time? Or just acknowledge this internal fact and go on with your life?

Originally posted by twhitehead
One. Please define "Order" as it is a rather vague term.

Two. Good and evil do not exist.

Three. You'll just have to wait and see. Or not see as the case may be.
Of course condition No 3 really boils down to "I cant be convinced in this lifetime!"

He wanted reasons I gave three.
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Well, "order" can be explained through simply chemistry, without the need for God.


"Good" and "Evil" are mere subjective judgements; they've changed many times in the past,but the biggies remain the same, exactly the same as every other species on the planet, pretty much.

That's called evolutionary biology.

As for 3, well, Kelly, unless you a ...[text shortened]... eally, really committed, you can't argue whether or not an afterlife exists or not yet.

Chemistry at best is the study of order, it is not be the reason for it.

I do not agree that good and evil are purely subjective, in some cases it is matter of personal taste yes, but that is not same thing as saying our personal taste are not wrapped around something very real such as good and evil.

He wanted a reason for me to say I was wrong about God, at death I'll know, just as you will.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Chemistry at best is the study of order, it is not be the reason for it.

I do not agree that good and evil are purely subjective, in some cases it is matter of personal taste yes, but that is not same thing as saying our personal taste are not wrapped around something very real such as good and evil.

He wanted a reason for me to say I was wrong about God, at death I'll know, just as you will.
Kelly

Or not.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Or not.

"Or not?"

?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"Or not?"

?
Kelly

He means that, if there is no life after death as he believes, then you will never know.

Originally posted by jebry
He means that, if there is no life after death as he believes, then you will never know.

If that was what he was saying, then maybe he is right, we will all never know. I however, don't believe that is the case.
Kelly

Originally posted by howardgee
This is a sincere question for everybody out there who believes that God exists.
It is a thought experiment for you, so give it a good shot and please admit it if you cannot think of anything at all, as this is all a part of the exercise.

The question for you to try to answer is this:

"What evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that God does not exist?"

prove to me you exist then i prove to you god does

Originally posted by eatmybishop
prove to me you exist then i prove to you god does

A knee in the nuts should be proof enough.

EDIT: Bet you God can't do that.

Originally posted by howardgee
This is a sincere question for everybody out there who believes that God exists.
It is a thought experiment for you, so give it a good shot and please admit it if you cannot think of anything at all, as this is all a part of the exercise.

The question for you to try to answer is this:

"What evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that God does not exist?"

"What evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that God does not exist?"


For me it would have to be a systematic dismantling of the spiritual experiences of mankind. So for example if it could be shown that the Christian experience of the Holy Spirit could be dismissed as false in a convincing way then that would be much more of a problem for me than any philosophical argument or even scientific evidence. It's very hard to believe God doesn't exist if he keeps pestering you with his presence.