A mental exercise for believers in God.

Originally posted by josephw
How strange that you would not believe in God when there is no evidence that he doesn't exists.
And I wouldn't say you were brain washed, but decieved.

"How strange that you would not believe in God when there is no evidence that he doesn't exists (sic)."

This is a preposterous thing to say.
By your justification, it is strange that people don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. For there is no evidence that the FSM doesn't exist.

Originally posted by howardgee
"How strange that you would not believe in God when there is no evidence that he doesn't exists (sic)."

This is a preposterous thing to say.
By your justification, it is strange that people don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. For there is no evidence that the FSM doesn't exist.

Evidence is evidence in a legal case both sides use everything that
they can to prove their points. You would be better served looking
for reasons of a positive position than what you are trying to
squeeze out of everyone.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Evidence is evidence in a legal case both sides use everything that
they can to prove their points. You would be better served looking
for reasons of a positive position than what you are trying to
squeeze out of everyone.
Kelly

It is impossible to argue logically with someone like you.

This is because you simply ignore the objections and restate the same point again!

For instance, I argued eloquently that your 'evidence' (1) and (2) would require you to not exist and therefore could never be evidenced by you, and you simply stated that only (3) implied your non-existence.
You gave no reasons or logic to refute my points.
It is always like this with you, Kelly.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised as I am only too well aware of your excedingly limited intellect.

Originally posted by howardgee
It is impossible to argue logically with someone like you.

This is because you simply ignore the objections and restate the same point again!

For instance, I argued eloquently that your 'evidence' (1) and (2) would require you to not exist and therefore could never be evidenced by you, and you simply stated that only (3) implied your non-existence.
...[text shortened]... ss I shouldn't be surprised as I am only too well aware of your excedingly limited intellect.

One, no order in the universe
Two, No good or evil
Three, nothing awaits me when I die

If I thought all I would get from you was an argument, eloquenty or not
I'd continue this discussion with you; howeveer, more times than not
you basically only use this forum as a means to take cheap shots at
those whose beliefs you disagree with. If you could limit yourself to
just discussing points and counter points we go much deeper into this,
I just do not think you could do that, your history here not your
intellect, limited, or otherwise makes me think you are not really
interested in an exchange of ideas, just a place to insult.

The bottom line we all look at the universe around us, apply our
beliefs to it and come up with the whys, yourself included.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
One, no order in the universe
Two, No good or evil
Three, nothing awaits me when I die

If I thought all I would get from you was an argument, eloquenty or not
I'd continue this discussion with you; howeveer, more times than not
you basically only use this forum as a means to take cheap shots at
those whose beliefs you disagree with. If you could ...[text shortened]... iverse around us, apply our
beliefs to it and come up with the whys, yourself included.
Kelly

Unbelievable!

Once again, you fail to address my points and simply reiterate your case.
In short, you have done exactly what I accused you of doing - contributed nothing to the debate.

Originally posted by howardgee
Again, you fail to give a single example of some thing which would cause you to accept that God does not exist.

That's because there is no way to prove or disprove God. One can only reach a point of personal conviction . To "know" for sure that God didn't/did exist one would have to almost be God or know everything there was to know.

Despite what you say I have provided an example of a thing that would seriously challenge my faith. The fact that I can't describe it in detail is due to it not having arisen yet in my life. If I were able to describe it then that would mean I had come across it and I would have had to then have given up my faith as a result. If this had happened I would not be here now writing this.

In some ways you question is paradoxical because if one were to completely be able to answer it , one would not be a Christian.

I could equally ask you would a powerful spiritual experience of the presence of God give you a good reason to abandon atheism ? The problem is that you would need to know what this experience was like to answer my question ...and if you did know what it was like you might not be an atheist !

Originally posted by howardgee
Unbelievable!

Once again, you fail to address my points and simply reiterate your case.
In short, you have done exactly what I accused you of doing - contributed nothing to the debate.

What points are those, there is only one that has death as an
outcome, and there I believe the reality of it unless Jesus returns
would settle all questions.

You asked for reasons why I'd think God isn't real, the fact that one
two or all three have that type of boundary is still an answer to your
query, like it or not.

As far as order and my life is concern, it is evidence that I accept
for God, coupled with complexity in the entire universe. You think
if that were not true I would not be here, well I agree, which is an
other piece of evidence that shows God is real as far as I'm concern.

Right and wrong, I believe also points to God, I could dismiss God
if I didn't feel that those were real, if they were just personal tastes
or human constructs I could dismiss God, but I do not believe they
are, because I do not believe man can change right and wrong, he is
bound by it, he justifies his actions because he needs too. These
are my reasons, again the fact you accept them or reject them add
nothing to my belief unless you can give me another reason, or
make me see these are not valid, and you have not.
Kelly

How about this...

If you could be rigged up to some equipment which, at the press of a button and through stimulating brain areas, provoked exactly the feelings and experiences that you currently attribute to God / the holy spirit / whatever, would that give you pause for thought? I'm talking about a situation where, after having such an experience or feeling, you were unable to tell whether it had come 'from God' or from the guy with the button.

If it could then be shown how the same stimulation can occur through natural processes in daily life, would you then accept that your belief in God might be on shakey grounds?

This is all purely hypothetical of course but that was the nature of the original question.

--- Penguin

Originally posted by Penguin
How about this...

If you could be rigged up to some equipment which, at the press of a button and through stimulating brain areas, provoked exactly the feelings and experiences that you currently attribute to God / the holy spirit / whatever, would that give you pause for thought? I'm talking about a situation where, after having such an experience or fee ...[text shortened]... urely hypothetical of course but that was the nature of the original question.

--- Penguin

To a certain extent this has been kind of done in some experiments. There has been some research done on stimultaing certain aspects of the brain to induce a spiritual experience. However , the problem still remains. What does pressing the buitton prove? One could easily argue that stimulating the brain helps one to open up to a real experience of God . It may or may not be purely a natural occurence. God is said to be present with everyone at all times so if we stimulate the brain to open up an individual to that experience then it might be inconclusive. Intiating the experience with a button would not prove the experience to be false , any more than stimulating a certain memory bank would not make the memory false.

My guess is that if we had such a button and the whole world was exposed to this experience the number of Christians would rise not fall.

Originally posted by Penguin
How about this...

If you could be rigged up to some equipment which, at the press of a button and through stimulating brain areas, provoked exactly the feelings and experiences that you currently attribute to God / the holy spirit / whatever, would that give you pause for thought? I'm talking about a situation where, after having such an experience or fee ...[text shortened]... urely hypothetical of course but that was the nature of the original question.

--- Penguin

Interesting.

Taking your idea a stage further, and in keeping with the theme of trying to disprove God's existence, what if the buttons were pressed to PREVENT the feelings and experiences that you currently attribute to God / the holy spirit.
How many months/years of having none of these feelings would it take believers in God to question his existence?

Originally posted by howardgee
Interesting.

Taking your idea a stage further, and in keeping with the theme of trying to disprove God's existence, what if the buttons were pressed to PREVENT the feelings and experiences that you currently attribute to God / the holy spirit.
How many months/years of having none of these feelings would it take believers in God to question his existence?

Now that, I like. As KnightMeister pointed out, my example could be said to just stimulate the same areas as God does. It does not disprove him (he's not a disprovable concept) but just demonstrates that he is not the only explanation for the experiences.

However your version would imply that God can be 'turned off'. The God of the Bible cannot be turned off so either he does not exist or he would have to be complicit, choosing to play along with the experiment. Doesn't seem like the sort of experiment the Christian or Muslim God would be a party to though (the FSM probably would since it has a sense of humour), surely it's more likely he was never really there.

Assuming such an experiment could be done though (might even be easier than my version) and it worked whenever tried, how many devoutly religious people would be willing to give it a go?

Obviously it still does not disprove God. As has been said many times, including 3 paragraphs ago, any supernatural being is not disprovable. It could be said that God was having no truck with someone willing to so blatantly test his own faith.

Would such an experiment shake the confidence of any believers on this forum? My guess is no but I'd be interested in hearing their justification.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by howardgee
This is a sincere question for everybody out there who believes that God exists.
It is a thought experiment for you, so give it a good shot and please admit it if you cannot think of anything at all, as this is all a part of the exercise.

The question for you to try to answer is this:

"What evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that God does not exist?"

A refutation of the Five Ways from a metaphysical realist's perspective, possibly.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
A refutation of the Five Ways from a metaphysical realist's perspective, possibly.

Such as?

Originally posted by howardgee
Such as?

I don't know of any. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I don't know of any. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

No, I mean a theoretical refutation.

What would qualify?