A mental exercise for believers in God.

Originally posted by Acemaster
In order to answer, I need a little more info. What exactly is this evidence of God not existing?

This is what I am asking you!

Originally posted by knightmeister
"What evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that God does not exist?"


For me it would have to be a systematic dismantling of the spiritual experiences of mankind. So for example if it could be shown that the Christian experience of the Holy Spirit could be dismissed as false in a convincing way then that would be much more of a problem for ...[text shortened]... e. It's very hard to believe God doesn't exist if he keeps pestering you with his presence.

Your answer is a non-answer.

What evidence in particular would show that the Christian experience of the Holy Spirit could be dismissed?

Originally posted by josephw
Irrefutable evidence.

Way back in my early 20's, before I knew God, I developed a mental exercise I would go through each night as I fell asleep. You see, I was determined to know whether or not there was a God, so I began to think.
I thought, here I am in this material universe, in space. There are three things there. Matter, the space that matter exist ...[text shortened]... ealm can be.
So, where did everything come from. The only answer is that everything was made.

I asked you what evidence would be enough to persuade you that God does not exist, and you reply; "Irrefutable evidence".

Well Yes, but what "Irrefutable evidence"?
Give me an example.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Here are three things

One, no order in the universe
Two, No good or evil
Three, nothing awaits me when I die

What would make you think there is no God?
Kelly

1. "no order in the universe".
It is interesting that you do not state that "Chaos in the universe" would be enough evidence to persuade you that God does not exist. For such chaos can be found in the weather system for instance.
So only a complete absence of order would be enough for you to believe that God is not. However, human beings require order to exist; we have eyes to see, brains ordered to make sense of the world , etc.
Thus this is an empty claim, since a complete lack of order could never persuade you of God's non-existence, as order is logically entailed by your existence!

2. "No good or evil".
Again, it is interesting that you do not state that the presence of evil would be enough to dissuade you from believing in God. For there should logically be no evil in a universe created by an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being. And there is certainly no shortage of evil in the world today.
However, you make the weaker claim that neither good, nor evil must exist for you to cease to believe in God. Of course, "Good" and "Evil" are simply human values given to actions and events. Events are not intrinsically good or evil. As long as there are humans, events will be described as good or evil.
Thus this too is an empty claim, since a complete lack of "Good" and "Evil" could never persuade you of God's non-existence, as "Good" and "Evil" are logically entailed by your existence!

3. "nothing awaits me when I die".
If there is nothing awaiting you when you die, then you will not have any evidence of God's non-existence, because you will be dead!

In short, at first glance a nice try, KellyJay. But after a moment's consideration, your evidential claims are all empty. The problem is that they all require you not to exist in order for them to be considered true! Thus they cannot ever be evidence for you to believe that God does not exist.
Try to come up with some evidence which would persuade YOU that God does not exist, which does not require your non-existence!

Originally posted by howardgee
I asked you what evidence would be enough to persuade you that God does not exist, and you reply; "Irrefutable evidence".

Well Yes, but what "Irrefutable evidence"?
Give me an example.

It seems that that is what the debate is all about in this forum. And no one, including me, can come up with evidence for or againts either claim.
Evidence seems to intail something tangible, physical, but there doesn't seem to be any.
Although I have argued that the very existance of everything is proof in itself for the existance of God.

For me there is no proof that God isn't, only proof that he is.
If there is proof that God isn't, then I don't know what it is.

Originally posted by howardgee
Your answer is a non-answer.

What evidence in particular would show that the Christian experience of the Holy Spirit could be dismissed?

I don't know , I've not come across anything convincing yet. The reason why I would say this is pivotal is that one thing that makes Christianity believable is the on going experience of God as a living entity through the activity of the Holy Spirit. Without this the whole thing is just a dead philosophy. One thing I know for sure is that when people open their hearts to God in all honesty He seems to respond. People experience Jesus as being truely alive in a real way through the Holy Spirit. What's more this activity is consistent with the experiences in the Bible (speaking in tongues , prophecy , emotional healing etc etc)

This experience is real . It may be hallucinatory or the living God , but nothing I have come across convinces me that it is not the living God.

Originally posted by howardgee
Your answer is a non-answer.

What evidence in particular would show that the Christian experience of the Holy Spirit could be dismissed?

It was not a non-answer , you asked for an honest response and you got one. Are you an atheist? If so what evidence would it take for you to start thinking God might be there?

Originally posted by howardgee
1. "no order in the universe".
It is interesting that you do not state that "Chaos in the universe" would be enough evidence to persuade you that God does not exist. For such chaos can be found in the weather system for instance.
So only a complete absence of order would be enough for you to believe that God is not. However, human beings require order ...[text shortened]... YOU that God does not exist, which does not require your non-existence!

I don't care one wit what you think of my reasons howardgee any
more than I'm sure you care about mine. If my thoughts on the
matter are not to your liking, stop asking the questions if you do
not want to see it.
Kelly

Originally posted by josephw
It seems that that is what the debate is all about in this forum. And no one, including me, can come up with evidence for or againts either claim.
Evidence seems to intail something tangible, physical, but there doesn't seem to be any.
Although I have argued that the very existance of everything is proof in itself for the existance of God.

For me there ...[text shortened]... n't, only proof that he is.
If there is proof that God isn't, then I don't know what it is.

I am not asking you to come up with evidence.

I am asking you what evidence in theory would be enough to convince you that God does not exist.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't care one wit what you think of my reasons howardgee any
more than I'm sure you care about mine. If my thoughts on the
matter are not to your liking, stop asking the questions if you do
not want to see it.
Kelly

It is no that your thoughts are not to my liking.
Indeed it made me think about your replies, and was a good mental exercise for me.

The point is that I asked you what evidence would convince you of God's non-existence, and all 3 required your non-existence!
Thus they can never be proof for you, because you would not be around to experience the proof.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't know , I've not come across anything convincing yet. The reason why I would say this is pivotal is that one thing that makes Christianity believable is the on going experience of God as a living entity through the activity of the Holy Spirit. Without this the whole thing is just a dead philosophy. One thing I know for sure is that when people r the living God , but nothing I have come across convinces me that it is not the living God.

Again, you fail to give a single example of some thing which would cause you to accept that God does not exist.

Originally posted by howardgee
I am not asking you to come up with evidence.

I am asking you what evidence in theory would be enough to convince you that God does not exist.

I thought about it as hard as I could, and I don't know what that evidence would be.
The truth is , and I know this is unacceptable to you, I know that no such evidence exists.
For me to believe such evidence existed, even in theory, would be an acknowledgement of self deception.

Originally posted by josephw
I thought about it as hard as I could, and I don't know what that evidence would be.
The truth is , and I know this is unacceptable to you, I know that no such evidence exists.
For me to believe such evidence existed, even in theory, would be an acknowledgement of self deception.

Doesn't this make you feel uncomforatble; believing that something exists without ANY empirical evidence that it does. Moreover, knowing that no amount of empirical evidence that it does not exist would ever persuade you to change your mind.

Compare your belief to brain washing:

"holds strong ideas considered to be...resistant to evidence, common sense, experience, and logic"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_washing#Present_use_of_the_term

Originally posted by howardgee
It is no that your thoughts are not to my liking.
Indeed it made me think about your replies, and was a good mental exercise for me.

The point is that I asked you what evidence would convince you of God's non-existence, and all 3 required your non-existence!
Thus they can never be proof for you, because you would not be around to experience the proof.

Only one would, and that too is a matter of just this life time, if life
does continue after this life time, I'd know.
Kelly

Originally posted by howardgee
Doesn't this make you feel uncomforatble; believing that something exists without ANY empirical evidence that it does. Moreover, knowing that no amount of empirical evidence that it does not exist would ever persuade you to change your mind.

Compare your belief to brain washing:

"holds strong ideas considered to be...resistant to evidence, common s ...[text shortened]... experience, and logic"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_washing#Present_use_of_the_term

How strange that you would not believe in God when there is no evidence that he doesn't exists.
And I wouldn't say you were brain washed, but decieved.