1. Zugzwang
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    02 Jun '15 22:593 edits
    "There is no such thing as a righteous Muslim."
    --RJHinds (1 June 2015)

    The following story comes from _Portugal's War in Guine-Bissau_ by
    Al Venter, a right-wing white South African journalist. (Evidently, Venter
    supported apartheid, and he left South Africa when apartheid was abolished.)
    I don't have the book at hand, and i have forgotten the exact name of
    the Muslim hero (whom I shall call 'M' ).

    This story took place during the war in Guinea-Bissau between Portugal
    (the imperialist power) and PAIGC, a black African movement of 'national liberation'.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea-Bissau_War_of_Independence

    M, a black African, volunteered to fight for Portugal rather than the PAIGC.
    Why? Apparently, he was a devout Muslim who believed the Portuguese
    propaganda that the nominally pro-Marxist PAIGC were atheists who would
    ban religion (including Islam) if they took power. So M fought hard for
    the Portuguese, even though they often looked down on him with racist disdain.
    M would be assigned to lead patrols of white Portuguese soldiers (largely
    conscripts) into the bush, and his skills were supposed to help keep
    the less experienced Portuguese alive. Although he probably had saved
    more than a few Portuguese lives in combat, M received little recognition
    for it until his last day. As usual, M was walking point, leading white
    Portuguese soldiers in the bush. An ambush caught them by surprise.
    A grenade landed near M and the foremost white Portuguese soldiers.
    In the final act of his life, M threw himself on the grenade and smothered
    its blast. He sacrificed his own life; none of the white Portuguese soldiers
    was even wounded. I don't know how (largely racist) white Portuguese
    soldiers would feel about having their lives saved by a black African
    Muslim, but I suppose that they remembered him for quite a while.

    While M had received little respect in life from the Portuguese, they
    decided to honour him after his death. M received a high decoration
    for bravery. M was given a Portuguese military funeral, with white soldiers
    being ordered to stand at attention and show respect to a black man--imagine that!
    While it was customary for only a Catholic priest to recite prayers at a
    Portuguese military funeral, it's possible that the Portuguese authorities
    might even have allowed a Muslim cleric to pray for the fallen Muslim hero.
    Portugal eventually lost the war. Afterward, reportedly, the victorious PAIGC
    executed thousands of black Africans who had fought for the Portuguese.
    At least M had died on the battlefield rather than in front of a firing squad.

    Was M a hero (to the Portuguese), a traitor (to PAIGC), or a dupe?
    While one may argue about this, I think that everyone should acknowledge
    that M was a brave man who sacrificed his own life to save other people's lives,
    even though these people were of a different nationality, race, and religion.
    So perhaps even some Christians here (not RJHinds, of course) can
    respect M, who died as bravely and selflessly as any Muslim could.
  2. Joined
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    03 Jun '15 05:38
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "There is no such thing as a righteous Muslim."
    --RJHinds (1 June 2015)

    The following story comes from _Portugal's War in Guine-Bissau_ by
    Al Venter, a right-wing white South African journalist. (Evidently, Venter
    supported apartheid, and he left South Africa when apartheid was abolished.)
    I don't have the book at hand, and i have forgotten the ex ...[text shortened]... not RJHinds, of course) can
    respect M, who died as bravely and selflessly as any Muslim could.
    A moving story. I'm always struck with a sense of awe at the ability of one human being to sacrifice thier life for another, especially when the other may not have been deserving of it. Heroism indeed, although not necessarily righteousness.
  3. Joined
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    03 Jun '15 08:34
    christians forming a circle around muslims so they could pray.
    muslims gathering outside churches so that christians could have a christmas mass without fear of terrorists


    good people are everywhere, regardless of faith and everyone claiming all the members of a whole religion are evil is a hateful prick.
  4. Standard memberbill718
    Enigma
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    03 Jun '15 09:17
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "There is no such thing as a righteous Muslim."
    --RJHinds (1 June 2015)

    The following story comes from _Portugal's War in Guine-Bissau_ by
    Al Venter, a right-wing white South African journalist. (Evidently, Venter
    supported apartheid, and he left South Africa when apartheid was abolished.)
    I don't have the book at hand, and i have forgotten the ex ...[text shortened]... not RJHinds, of course) can
    respect M, who died as bravely and selflessly as any Muslim could.
    Dutchess64. I agree with the vast majority of your views and posts. It's too bad that your hypersensitive nature, and disagreeable personality gets in the way of you making more friends here. 😲
  5. Zugzwang
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    03 Jun '15 21:151 edit
    Originally posted by bill718
    Dutchess64. I agree with the vast majority of your views and posts. It's too bad that your hypersensitive nature, and disagreeable personality gets in the way of you making more friends here. 😲
    Does Bill718 have any comment about 'a Muslim who became a hero to Christians'? Apparently not.

    The troll Bill718 has jumped in to attack me personally again in a thread that has nothing to do with him.
    In at least several earlier threads (in the Debates forum), I have cited evidence of Bill718's
    persistent dishonesty, stupidity, and unwillingness to admit his errors. I have written
    nothing *recently* about or to BIll718, but evidently Bill718 obsessively hates me enough
    that he wishes to resume a 'flame war' against me. Again, it's Bill718 who started it here.

    And Bill718 a self-styled 'liberal' American, apparently wants me *to ignore all the evidence
    of his dishonesty* in arguments because he claims to agree with me 'the vast majority' of the time.
    (Bill718's an extremely partisan Democrat who, in 'knee-jerk' fashion, likes to act as though
    the Democrats must always be right and the Republicans must always be wrong in US politics.)
    But I refuse to show the blind political favoritism that Bill718 demands. I criticize dishonesty
    in argument when I perceive it, regardless of that person's claimed political associations.

    In several posts over the years, Bill718 has taken the apparent position, "Duchess64
    should never criticize Bill718 because he's a 'liberal' American and Duchess64 ought to
    show blind support for all 'liberals'." On the contrary, I have criticized Bill718 for being dishonest
    and wrong just as I have criticized 'conservative' Americans for being dishonest and wrong.
    'Liberal' Americans (as Bill718 has shown) are capable of being dishonest and wrong too.
  6. Joined
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    03 Jun '15 21:32
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Does Bill718 have any comment about 'a Muslim who became a hero to Christians'? Apparently not.

    The troll Bill718 has jumped in to attack me personally again in a thread that has nothing to do with him.
    In at least several earlier threads (in the Debates forum), I have cited evidence of Bill718's
    persistent dishonesty, stupidity, and unwillingness to ...[text shortened]... wrong.
    'Liberal' Americans (as Bill718 has shown) are capable of being dishonest and wrong too.
    **butt in
    If you are looking for a fight with Bill718 then this is the right way to entertain us. Alternatively you are probably allowing your interesting OP to be hijacked by throwing fuel on his fire.
    **butt out
  7. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    03 Jun '15 21:50
    Originally posted by divegeester
    **butt in
    If you are looking for a fight with Bill718 then this is the right way to entertain us. Alternatively you are probably allowing your interesting OP to be hijacked by throwing fuel on his fire.
    **butt out
    If she's quoting RJHinds, she's screwed. No advice anyone may give can possibly save her.
  8. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    03 Jun '15 22:22
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "There is no such thing as a righteous Muslim."
    --RJHinds (1 June 2015)

    The following story comes from _Portugal's War in Guine-Bissau_ by
    Al Venter, a right-wing white South African journalist. (Evidently, Venter
    supported apartheid, and he left South Africa when apartheid was abolished.)
    I don't have the book at hand, and i have forgotten the ex ...[text shortened]... not RJHinds, of course) can
    respect M, who died as bravely and selflessly as any Muslim could.
    It is clear Black and white or racist or not or religious or not, none of that would have gone through the mind of M, he saw a danger and reacted instinctively.

    Someone asked Mother Teresa why she did what she did. Her answer: Because it would (paraphrasing here) raise the opinion of god as to the value of the Catholic Church.

    So her deeds were with this religious goal in mind, god will like me better kind of thing.
    That is just what we don't need, in my opinion. We need more people like M who does the right thing regardless of some religious calculus.
  9. Zugzwang
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    03 Jun '15 22:56
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    It is clear Black and white or racist or not or religious or not, none of that would have gone through the mind of M, he saw a danger and reacted instinctively.

    Someone asked Mother Teresa why she did what she did. Her answer: Because it would (paraphrasing here) raise the opinion of god as to the value of the Catholic Church.

    So her deeds were with ...[text shortened]... nion. We need more people like M who does the right thing regardless of some religious calculus.
    I abhor the way that RJHinds (and other bigots) like to stick labels onto other people and
    reduce them to dehumanizing stereotypes. I think that this story shows that people may
    act in surprising ways, contradicting these stereotypes. If I had begun this story by saying,
    'This is a story about a Muslim who committed suicide in a war', then I suspect that most
    people here would have jumped to the conclusion that I was referring to a 'suicide bomber'
    and instantly arrived at a negative impression of M.

    M had to make his final decision instantly. He had no time for deep reflection about it.
    He decided to sacrifice his own life, however, because his upbringing--including his religious
    faith--had taught him that it was the right thing to do to help save other people's lives.
    I don't know to what extent M believed (as the stereotype goes) that he would ascend to
    Paradise and be able to enjoy however many virgins. And I don't know to what extent
    M's self-sacrifice was motivated by any hope of reward in the afterlife. But his Islamic
    faith seems to have instructed him that it would be noble to die to help save other lives.
    And so I don't know if M would have done the same thing if he had been an atheist.
    (I know that some atheists have sacrificed their own lives to help save others' lives.)

    I wonder how RJHinds would have felt if he had been one of the men saved by M's self-sacrifice.
    Would RJHinds still have hated M for being a Muslim and looked down on him for being black?

    "Though I've belted you and flayed you,
    By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!"
    --Rudyard Kipling

    It's sad that the Portuguese failed to recognize M's worth until after his heroic death.
    If the Portuguese had truly recognized the worth of their black African colonial subjects,
    however, then they might not have fought so hard to deny them the right to govern themselves.
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
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    03 Jun '15 23:37
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "There is no such thing as a righteous Muslim."
    --RJHinds (1 June 2015)

    The following story comes from _Portugal's War in Guine-Bissau_ by
    Al Venter, a right-wing white South African journalist. (Evidently, Venter
    supported apartheid, and he left South Africa when apartheid was abolished.)
    I don't have the book at hand, and i have forgotten the ex ...[text shortened]... not RJHinds, of course) can
    respect M, who died as bravely and selflessly as any Muslim could.
    Maybe that proves the only good Black Muslim is a dead Black Muslim. 😏
  11. Zugzwang
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    03 Jun '15 23:57
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Maybe that proves the only good Black Muslim is a dead Black Muslim. 😏
    I suspect that even most Christians here would agree that a Muslim who sacrificed his
    own life to save the lives of strangers was a morally much better person than RJHinds.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    04 Jun '15 00:152 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Bill718 said: " I agree with the vast majority of your views and posts. It's too bad that your hypersensitive nature, and disagreeable personality gets in the way of you making more friends here."

    And you replied thusly...

    Does Bill718 have any comment about 'a Muslim who became a hero to Christians'? Apparently not. The troll Bill718 has jumped in to attack me personally again in a thread that has nothing to do with him. In at least several earlier threads (in the Debates forum), I have cited evidence of Bill718's persistent dishonesty, stupidity, and unwillingness to admit his errors. I have written nothing *recently* about or to BIll718, but evidently Bill718 obsessively hates me enough that he wishes to resume a 'flame war' against me. Again, it's Bill718 who started it here. And Bill718 a self-styled 'liberal' American, apparently wants me *to ignore all the evidence of his dishonesty* in arguments because he claims to agree with me 'the vast majority' of the time. (Bill718's an extremely partisan Democrat who, in 'knee-jerk' fashion, likes to act as though the Democrats must always be right and the Republicans must always be wrong in US politics.) But I refuse to show the blind political favoritism that Bill718 demands. I criticize dishonesty in argument when I perceive it, regardless of that person's claimed political associations. In several posts over the years, Bill718 has taken the apparent position, "Duchess64 should never criticize Bill718 because he's a 'liberal' American and Duchess64 ought to show blind support for all 'liberals'." On the contrary, I have criticized Bill718 for being dishonest and wrong just as I have criticized 'conservative' Americans for being dishonest and wrong. 'Liberal' Americans (as Bill718 has shown) are capable of being dishonest and wrong too.

    Bill718's criticism of and advice to you seems far more reasonable, measured and kindly put than your criticism of him. You have illustrated his point better than he could have.

    Thanks for the thought provoking anecdote about the Muslim guy whose name you forgot.
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    04 Jun '15 00:381 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    M had to make his final decision instantly. He had no time for deep reflection about it. He decided to sacrifice his own life, however, because his upbringing--including his religious faith--had taught him that it was the right thing to do to help save other people's lives.
    You don't seem to be making any particular incisive point about his Islamic faith or the impact of his particular religious beliefs ~ as opposed to the different religious beliefs of others who did and do similar things to him ~ and you even concede that atheists do the same kinds of things.

    Your efforts to make some sort of pro-Muslim point to a poster with views like those of RJHinds by using a heroism-in-war anecdote of this kind is never going tackle the prejudice that is espoused on this forum regarding ordinary, virtuous, God fearing Muslim families going about their lives in their hundreds and hundreds of millions.

    This is especially so when your slightly tabloid anecdote simply has generic religious labels tacked onto it which mean little or nothing about the beliefs and deeds of the people involved.
  14. Zugzwang
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    04 Jun '15 03:431 edit
    Some people (including some of my usual trolls) might disbelieve the story that I related.
    While I may no longer be certain of every detail--it's been years since I read the book--I
    have cited the exact source for it. I would add that what I write must depend upon what
    Al Venter originally wrote. Al Venter, a right-wing white South African journalist, was
    sympathetic toward Portugal in its colonial war. Evidently, Al Venter had no interest in
    Islam or in the deeper motivations of a black African Muslim who fought for Portugal.
    So I cannot comment much upon the inner life of this black African Muslim given that Al
    Venter, the author of my source, seemed uninterested in his spiritual life in the first place.
    Al Venter was writing a military/political history of an African colonial war, *not* a
    comparative psychological study of how different religious faiths can motivate people.
    So why should I be blamed for not being able to supply something that Al Venter did write?
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    04 Jun '15 03:442 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    You don't seem to be making any particular incisive point about his Islamic faith or the impact of his particular religious beliefs ~ as opposed to the different religious beliefs of others who did and do similar things to him ~ and you even concede that atheists do the same kinds of things.

    Your efforts to make some sort of pro-Muslim point to a poster with ...[text shortened]... tacked onto it which mean little or nothing about the beliefs and deeds of the people involved.
    I am skeptical of her story and especially the part about being able to know the mind of this so-called Muslim mystery man. Who knows if he was looking forward to 70 virgins in Heaven? 😏
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