Originally posted by lemon limeHa ha. I see what you did there. Posters like yourself, Suzianne and josephw go on and on and on about how I am supposedly dishonest, obfuscating, misdirecting, confused, disingenuous, that I have a problem understanding English, that I am intellectually dishonest and so on and so forth ~ ad nauseam. In the face of this constant 'banter', suggesting that I am forthright and mostly on target can hardly be characterized as me "extolling my virtues".
I see no evidence of the virtues you extol, if that's what you mean.
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Originally posted by FMFIf you eat mostly bananas are you mostly a banana?
Well I rather think it is you who is being asked to weigh in on it. bbar has made his position clear. Do you believe you will still literally be a "human being" if you get to "heaven"?
If God takes all of your bananas away are you no longer mostly a banana?
If you eat nothing but bananas are you a banana?
If God takes all of your bananas away will you cease to exist?
Or are you essentially you regardless of what you eat?
Originally posted by lemon limeThis does not answer the question. I am not talking about food; I am talking about identity and personhood. Do you think you will still be a "human being", wired that way ~ morally, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically ~ if you get to "heaven", or do you imagine that you will become some other entity like an "angel" or "spirit" that is, for all intents and purposes, no longer "human"?
If you eat mostly bananas are you mostly a banana?
If God takes all of your bananas away are you no longer mostly a banana?
If you eat nothing but bananas are you a banana?
If God takes all of your bananas away will you cease to exist?
Or are you essentially you regardless of what you eat?
Originally posted by FMFIf the only criteria for being human is inhabiting our present bodies then no, we will no longer be human. Will we essentially be the same person (regardless of body) then yes, we are the same person. The point of my banana analogy was for you to think about what it means to be you... the you that inhabits your body. My body is my home, but my body is not me. If you live in a house are you that house? Or do you inhabit that house? All of these statements and questions are an invitation for you to think about what it means to be you.
This does not answer the question. I am not talking about food; I am talking about identity and personhood. Do you think you will still be a "human being", wired that way ~ morally, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically ~ if you get to "heaven", or do you imagine that you will become some other entity like an "angel" or "spirit" that is, for all intents and purposes, no longer "human"?
-Removed-Why don't you look at these two possibilities and see if you can think which one is most likely to fit with the Biblical principles of Christ, atonement, mercy, and forgiveness.
Atonement, mercy and forgiveness seem to apply more to the here and now and heaven than they do to judgement and hell. I don't know how you are able to directly apply atonement, mercy and forgiveness to hell and punishment, so I'll leave that for you (or someone else) to explain.
I wasn't thinking of hell when I said "cooked up", but I'm not surprised you made that connection. By "cooked up" I simply meant you've come up with a scenario that contradicts Biblical teaching. You made up a scenario for the purpose of speculation. If parts of scripture offend you and do not "ring true", then parts of scripture offend you and do not "ring true".
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Originally posted by lemon limeThis answer is just as evasive as the one about bananas. Asking me "If you live in a house are you that house? Or do you inhabit that house?" is a red herring when what I am asking you is: what is the substance of your personhood and what is the impact on your personhood if your natural, humanity-defining and identity-defining 'anguishes' and relationships can be simply extinguished (by fear, for example, as you suggested at one point) ~ or simply dismissed and designated as being "all that crap" (as you suggested at another point) ~ in this "heaven" you imagine?
If the only criteria for being human is inhabiting our present bodies then no, we will no longer be human. Will we essentially be the same person (regardless of body) then yes, we are the same person. The point of my banana analogy was for you to think about what it means to be you... the you that inhabits your body. My body is my home, but my body is no ...[text shortened]... these statements and questions are an invitation for you to think about what it means to be you.
I put it it to you that it is you here in this conversation who is turning down the invitation "to think about what it means to be you".
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Originally posted by FMFMaybe you should try answering your own question:
This answer is just as evasive as the one about bananas. Asking me "If you live in a house are you that house? Or do you inhabit that house?" is a red herring when what I am asking you is: what is the substance of your personhood and what is the impact on your personhood if your natural, humanity-defining and identity-defining 'anguishes' and relationships can b ...[text shortened]... n this conversation who is turning down the invitation "to think about what it means to be you".
...what is the substance of your personhood and what is the impact on your personhood if your natural, humanity-defining and identity-defining 'anguishes' and relationships can be simply extinguished (by fear, for example, as you suggested at one point)
None of this makes sense. You're presuming my humanity and identity are defined by my anguishes. Also, I don't recall suggesting relationships can be simply extinguished (for example) by fear... what does that mean?
If you are in heaven it's because you accepted Gods way of getting there.
If a loved one is in hell it's because your loved one rejected that way.
If your "loved one" cared about themselves (or you) they would have done what it takes to be with you (in heaven). So you make a choice and your loved one makes a different choice. I don't understand this idea of eternal hand wringing and grief over someone who rejected God, and chose to not be with Him (and you) whether you care about them or not. So put on your big boy pants and learn to deal with it. All of the whining and finger pointing and how it makes you feel stuff is for little kids.
Originally posted by lemon limeI wouldn't want to be in this "heaven" you mention if my spouse were not there too. My relationship with her constitutes a great deal of who I am. Why would your notion of "heaven" extinguish this aspect of my humanity and and my identity? What would be the moral and psychological purpose of doing that to a human being?
I don't understand this idea of eternal hand wringing and grief over someone who rejected God, and chose to not be with Him (and you) whether you care about them or not. So put on your big boy pants and learn to deal with it. All of the whining and finger pointing and how it makes you feel stuff is for little kids.
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Originally posted by lemon limeWell, as I think has been pretty clear from the conversation, I am in agreement with bbar. Have you not gleaned that from what has been said?
Maybe you should try answering your own question:
...what is the substance of your personhood and what is the impact on your personhood if your natural, humanity-defining and identity-defining 'anguishes' and relationships can be simply extinguished (by fear, for example, as you suggested at one point)
Originally posted by lemon limeAnguish. Joy. Love. Compassion. Relationships. Memories. And the narrative that joins all these and many other things together. These are the things that create a unique identity with humanity. Don't you agree?
You're presuming my humanity and identity are defined by my anguishes.