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Originally posted by dystoniacperhaps if you would have a little more objective view of the traditions that have been handed down to you, statements like this would be unnecessary, fact - trinity is of a pre christian Greek origin, fact - Christ is not God, fact - the human soul is not immortal and does not transcend death, fact - Hell does not exist and the dead are unconscious of any suffering and pain - ALL CAN BE ESTABLISHED BIBLICALLY! there is nothing new age about it, they are simply all objectively true! but this doggedly clinging to church tradition in the face of such truth betrays not only a lack of humility, a general knowledge of scripture, but a persistence to remain fixed in the past! You are living in the past my friend, living in the past!
I have thought again. Good luck in your new age spiritualism...
Originally posted by dystoniacChristian. My preacher believes likewise. Words like Trinity, incarnate, God the Son, etc., are not found in the bible. My faith rests on the Word of God. Yours seems to be based on tradition and what you are being told by others. As I said earlier, you can choose to believe what you want....God bless...
What religion are you, because it doesn't sound Christian. Maybe one of those mega-church members? God consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or what some refer to as the Trinity. Jesus was God incarnate. I know it's hard to fathom, but it is true. Now, go ask your preacher, and if he says that I am wrong, turn around and run like the devil is after you.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieEvery one of you assertions about Christ, the dead, the after-life can be countered by verses in the same Bible that you purpotedly use. What 'brand" of Chritianity do you belong? The only people that believe remotely the same as you do are Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a JW?
perhaps if you would have a little more objective view of the traditions that have been handed down to you, statements like this would be unnecessary, fact - trinity is of a pre christian Greek origin, fact - Christ is not God, fact - the human soul is not immortal and does not transcend death, fact - Hell does not exist and the dead are unconscious ...[text shortened]... sistence to remain fixed in the past! You are living in the past my friend, living in the past!
Originally posted by checkbaiterThis will be my last attempt at clarifying what you and, obviously, many other New-Age Christians seem to confused about. I state this w/o malice but with hope that you and et al will come to understand. God Bless.
Christian. My preacher believes likewise. Words like Trinity, incarnate, God the Son, etc., are not found in the bible. My faith rests on the Word of God. Yours seems to be based on tradition and what you are being told by others. As I said earlier, you can choose to believe what you want....God bless...
Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God:
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html
Q: "What about the doctrine of the Trinity, the Holy Trinity?"
our A: "Trinity" is a term that is not found in the Bible but a word used to describe what is apparent about God in the Scriptures. The Bible clearly speaks of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit...and also clearly presents that there is only one God. Thus the term: "Tri" meaning three, and "Unity" meaning one, Tri+Unity = Trinity. It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is yet three "Persons" who have the same essence of deity.
Some have tried to give human illustrations for the Trinity, such as H2O being water, ice and steam (all different forms, but all are H2O). Another illustration is an egg having a shell, egg yolk and egg white, but this egg illustration shows that there would be "parts" to God, which isn't the case.
God the Son (Jesus) is fully, completely God. God the Father is fully, completely God. And God the Holy Spirit is fully, completely God. Yet there is only one God. In our world, with our limited human experience, it's tough to understand the Trinity. But from the beginning we see God this way in Scripture. Notice the plural pronouns "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26 -- Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Though not a complete list, here is some other Scripture that shows God is one, in Trinity:
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deut. 6:4)
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." (Isa. 45:5)
There is no God but one. (1Cor. 8:4)
And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." (Matt. 3:16-17)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19)
Jesus said: "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
"He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me." (John 12:45)
If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom. 8:9)
"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 1:20)
And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)
[Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." (John 14:16-17, 23)
http://www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html?gclid=CP6As--2o5kCFQ6jagoddD6ppg
Originally posted by dystoniacBrand?, brand?, what are you talking about, Brand?, this isn't some aspect of American culture that you buy in a jar at Quick-e-save. Many others have also tried to push some type of denominational pigeon hole of a definition, Why? so that they can feed their prejudices. I am a human being, get it, a human being and in my part of the world i have seen enough religious prejudice to last a thousand lifetimes, so just forget it, or perhaps you can show where in scripture there are these denominations that you are so fond of begin.
Every one of you assertions about Christ, the dead, the after-life can be countered by verses in the same Bible that you purpotedly use. What 'brand" of Chritianity do you belong? The only people that believe remotely the same as you do are Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a JW?
I belong to Paul, i belong to Apollos, and what happens, the Christ stands divided. have you learned nothing in reading scripture?
Just forget it, because i know, that nowhere in scripture is the Christ ever referred to as Almighty God, get it NOWHERE, i know from scripture that God cannot die, get it, GOD CANNOT DIE!, Christ died therefore he cannot be God, i know from scripture that that no one can see God and live, get it, NO ONE CAN SEE GOD AND LIVE, yet many people saw the Christ, get it, MANY PEOPLE SAW THE CHRIST, therefore he cannot be God, i know that God has always existed, get it GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED, yet Christ was a created being, get it, CHRIST HAS NOT ALWAYS EXISTED BUT WAS A CREATED BEING, until you can address even one of these matters i will say nothing more in this post unless I am asked, for I know you cannot prove even one of the assertions that you make, for they are refuted, not by me, but the very word of God which you purport to believe, yet your traditions, as the Christ stated to the Pharisees, 'have made the word of God invalid'.
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Originally posted by dystoniacAll these verses are easily explained but I will not trouble myself. In fact some even agree with what I am saying. I will only state this one section for you to ponder....
This will be my last attempt at clarifying what you and, obviously, many other New-Age Christians seem to confused about. I state this w/o malice but with hope that you and et al will come to understand. God Bless.
Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God:
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Je inity.html?gclid=CP6As--2o5kCFQ6jagoddD6ppg
1 Cor 15:23-28
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then {comes} the end, when He(Jesus) delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He(Jesus) must reign until He(God) has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He(Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He(God) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him(Jesus).
28And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One(God) who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.
(NAS)
(my edit in parenthesis)
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
Brand?, brand?, what are you talking about, Brand?, this isn't some aspect of American culture that you buy in a jar at Quick-e-save. Many others have also tried to push some type of denominational pigeon hole of a definition, Why? so that they can feed their prejudices. I am a human being, get it, a human being and in my part of the world i have ...[text shortened]... your traditions, as the Christ stated to the Pharisees, 'have made the word of God invalid'.
There, now indulge. False doctrine taught at New Age Churches (NAC)that want to make their followers think there is no hell just so the pews will be filled. No one wants to hear how wrathful God can be, so this is not taught at NACs. Even the Bible is changed to make it "cool" for young people. Jesus, saith: "I and the Father are one"!!!
Originally posted by dystoniacIf you would take care and the time to read the entire book, you will also realize that instead of picking verses out of context in a way that suits your agenda, the Christ was referring to unity, for he states, that just as he is in union with the father, that the disciples also be in union with him, so from your futile attempt to establish your preconceptions we must also conclude that the disciples are part of a trinity???
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
There, now indulg ...[text shortened]... nged to make it "cool" for young people. Jesus, saith: "I and the Father are one"!!!
What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.
In that day you will know that I am in union with my Father and you are in union with me and I am in union with you. He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.
where is Christ referred to in Scripture as Almighty God - i want to hear you say it, where?
what is the Hebrew words translated in scripture as either 'hell', 'pit', 'grave', and what does it mean?
what is the Greek word translated in scripture as either 'hell', 'pit', or 'grave', and what doers it mean?
and please do not beg off from answering these question, they are quite simple, easily discernible and not difficult to answer
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Originally posted by dystoniacJohn 10:30
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
There, now indulg ...[text shortened]... nged to make it "cool" for young people. Jesus, saith: "I and the Father are one"!!!
I and my father are one. (KJV)
1. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up “one God.” The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what he meant—he and his father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, “he who plants and he who waters are one” (1 Cor. 3:8 - KJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up “one being.” Furthermore, the NIV translates 1 Corinthians 3:8 as “he who plants and he who waters have one purpose.” Why translate the phrase as “are one” in one place, but as “have one purpose” in another place? In this case, translating the same phrase in two different ways obscures the clear meaning of Christ’s statement in John 10:30: Christ always did the Father’s will; he and God have “one purpose.”
2. Christ uses the concept of “being one” in other places, and from them one can see that “one purpose” is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God’s children “one.” In John 17:11,21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be “one” as he and God were “one.” We think it is obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being or “substance” just as he and his Father were one being or “substance.” We believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose, a prayer that has not yet been answered.
3. The context of John 10:30 shows conclusively that Jesus was referring to the fact that he had the same purpose as God did. Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the “sheep,” the believers, who came to him. He said that no one could take them out of his hand and that no one could take them out of his Father’s hand. Then he said that he and the Father were “one,” i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep.
(from Truth vs Tradition)
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John 10:33
“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (NIV)
1. Any difficulty in understanding this verse is caused by the translators. Had they faithfully rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verses 34 and 35, then it would read, “…you, a man, claim to be a god.” In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as “god,” not “God.” The point was made under John 1:1 that usually when “God” is meant, the noun theos has the definite article. When there is no article, the translators know that “god” is the more likely translation, and they are normally very sensitive to this. For example, in Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translated it “god.” The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, “they changed their minds and said he was a god.” Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated “a god.” It is a general principle that theos without the article should be “a god,” or “divine.” Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was “God.” On the other hand, Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God’s work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be “a god” or “divine.”
(from Truth vs Tradition)
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Originally posted by checkbaiterEven more than this my learned friend, consider the context of John chapter 17, where Christ again makes reference to the unity of himself with God and also with the disciples
John 10:30
I and my father are one. (KJV)
1. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up “one God.” The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what he meant—he and his father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his minis ...[text shortened]... one,” i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep.
(from Truth vs Tradition)
Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole number whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
“I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. They have now come to know that all the things you gave me are from you; because the sayings that you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them and have certainly come to know that I came out as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me forth. I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me; because they are yours, and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them.
“Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are. When I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me; and I have kept them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I am speaking these things in the world in order that they may have my joy in themselves to the full. I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
“I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. Just as you sent me forth into the world, I also sent them forth into the world. And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.
“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell done my friend...there is much more if need be, but I don't have the time right now...it is sad that Jesus Christ isn't given His rightful place as simply God's Son. It takes away from so much of His accomplishments. For example, when He was beaten, a trinitarian must ask himself "did He really feel the pain?" His suffering means so much more to me knowing He was a man who had to believe for God to raise Him up....which brings up the question of who raised Him? If He is God, did He really die?,etc....🙂
Even more than this my learned friend, consider the context of John chapter 17, where Christ again makes reference to the unity of himself with God and also with the disciples
Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given ...[text shortened]... in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and [b]I in union with them.”[/b]