after death question

Originally posted by FabianFnas
But he has a point. He pointed out the bad things about religion and compared them. If this is a weak point of religion, then we have to deal with it, even if it feels threatening...

he did nothing of the sort my friend, for the very reasons why such horrific persecution took place was the result of human dogma, human reasoning, and the application of a human ideology in the form of social Darwinism mixed with pagan ideology on an unprecedented scale, even that most noble of atheists, beetle would have trouble denying this.

look at the facts, the witnesses could have signed a piece of paper, recanting their stance and accepting the Nazi ideology, but they did not. why, because the principles that they held to be so elevated would not allow for this. yet if we are to believe that bad ol putty cat rwingett, these very same principles are to be degenerated below the realms of Nazi ideology, its simply incredulous. he owes an apology for such a statement or at least to make a recantation, for it has nothing to do with evidence but his loathing of Christianity.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have to stop you there, this time you have gone too far! i mean it, enough is enough! if you do your homework you will see that one of the first inmates in the Nazi concentration camps were Jehovah's Witnesses, a christian organization severely persecuted to the point of death in some instances, why? because they adhered to biblical principles tha ...[text shortened]... for all to see! so respect where respect is due rwingett, for this time you have gone too far!

RC: biblical principles that it was unlawful to kill another human being!

Tell that to the people of Jericho,the Midianites, etc. etc. etc.

Interestingly enough, the Nazis banned "c) All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk.

http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm#herrmann

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
he did nothing of the sort my friend, for the very reasons why such horrific persecution took place was the result of human dogma, human reasoning, and the application of a human ideology in the form of social Darwinism mixed with pagan ideology on an unprecedented scale, even that most noble of atheists, beetle would have trouble denying this.

lo ...[text shortened]... to make a recantation, for it has nothing to do with evidence but his loathing of Christianity.

You want to look at the facts? Then look beyond your stilted propaganda and see just how tightly bound the Nazi regime was with christianity.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

But that was not really my point. My earlier post wasn't about how most Nazis were christians. It was about how their doctrines each recognize torture, murder and genocide as legitimate means in pursuing their goals. The fundamentalist christians on this site (and elsewhere) unfailingly defend those indefensible tactics if they think they are divinely inspired. If the Nazis commit genocide, it is a horrible crime. But if their very own god commits the same crime, then it is a righteous act. If the Nazis sack a city and slaughter its inhabitants, then it is a horrible crime. If Joshua does the same thing at god's command, then it is a righteous act. This is moral relativism on a scale far surpassing anything a secular humanist could come up with. Your dogma is barbarous and morally bankrupt. It is the moral equivalent of Nazi ideology and is beneath the contempt of any civilized human being.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
he did nothing of the sort my friend, for the very reasons why such horrific persecution took place was the result of human dogma, human reasoning, and the application of a human ideology in the form of social Darwinism mixed with pagan ideology on an unprecedented scale, even that most noble of atheists, beetle would have trouble denying this.

lo ...[text shortened]... to make a recantation, for it has nothing to do with evidence but his loathing of Christianity.

He didn't do any personal attacks of you, my friend, (correct me if I'm wrong), he only stated his opinion over religion. This is not wrong, as I see many christians give their opinions of moslems, many catholics of protestants, even many members of a certain branch of christianity of another branch.

And giving opinions of religious nature is possible here at Spiritual Forum, it has its right here.

Personal attacks, on the other hand, ...

Originally posted by buckky
Can a non beliver still believe in an after life of some sorts ? Just the fact that we are here in the flesh talking about such issues is pretty wild if the whole thing is one big accident or fluke, so why could we not end up on the other side with awarness after death. I'm sure it could all be explained away as just another God not involved fluke. I'm not ta ...[text shortened]... evers ending up in Hell. Just identity after death with awarness of being alive in some sense.

How do you live on? For those who believe in an afterlife, isn't it the soul that moves on to that afterlife? If you don't believe in a soul, then I don't see how you can have any awareness since your brain, neurons, etc. are all dead.

Originally posted by pawnhandler
How do you live on? For those who believe in an afterlife, isn't it the soul that moves on to that afterlife? If you don't believe in a soul, then I don't see how you can have any awareness since your brain, neurons, etc. are all dead.

Aren't Buddhism and the non-dualist branches of Hinduism examples of non theist belief systems that believe in life after death?

Originally posted by rwingett
You want to look at the facts? Then look beyond your stilted propaganda and see just how tightly bound the Nazi regime was with christianity.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

But that was not really my point. My earlier post wasn't about how most Nazis were christians. It was about how their doctrines each ...[text shortened]... he moral equivalent of Nazi ideology and is beneath the contempt of any civilized human being.

i am sorry this is still completely unacceptable and flawed, those witnesses who were decapitated, tortured, their wives beaten before their very eyes were the victims of a human ideology, deny it you cannot, and what is more this has absolutely nothing to do with what the ancient Jews did nor can your pathetic attempts to correlate the two be justified, for we are talking here of Christian principles, principles like self sacrifice, willing to put ones own interests to the side for a higher principle, like love of ones fellow human, not to take up arms against ones fellow human as embodied in the example of Christ, principles that you and those who like you cannot comprehend, for they are so above your malicious attempts to degrade them, those witnesses are a testimony to the power of Christianity and your vile attempts to degrade them are nothing short of the lowest ebb that you have reached, the Nazis were not Christians, nor are those who kill other humans, for this is diametrically opposite to the teachings of Christ, which you are blissfully unaware of, which is self evident from your putrid and vile misunderstanding of the actual teachings of Christ and their application, you are a deluded fool and an intolerant and truly morally corrupt protagonist of lies and deceit, make your recantation of the statement that those Witnesses who died at the hands of the Nazis for following Christian principles were in any sense like them.

Originally posted by no1marauder
RC: biblical principles that it was unlawful to kill another human being!

Tell that to the people of Jericho,the Midianites, etc. etc. etc.

Interestingly enough, the Nazis banned "c) All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the ...[text shortened]... ents of the Volk.

http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm#herrmann

what is it that you don't understand about love of god, self sacrifice and love of ones fellow human being as embodied and exemplified in the example and teachings of Christ?

Originally posted by rwingett
You want to look at the facts? Then look beyond your stilted propaganda and see just how tightly bound the Nazi regime was with christianity.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

But that was not really my point. My earlier post wasn't about how most Nazis were christians. It was about how their doctrines each ...[text shortened]... he moral equivalent of Nazi ideology and is beneath the contempt of any civilized human being.

Unbelieveable! Irrespective of arguments about christiaity or god or whatever, you live an extreme dream world of your own.

Do you really think these photos constitute "facts" that support your extremeist thinking, and despite your claims of "reason" you are an extremist, your hate of christians eminates from you. If you were the head of any organisation in Nazi Germany, would you stand up and publicly object to Hitler. The fact that the catholics didn't is neither surprising nor relevant.

I suggest you get some therapy for whatever happened to you in the past.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
He didn't do any personal attacks of you, my friend, (correct me if I'm wrong), he only stated his opinion over religion. This is not wrong, as I see many christians give their opinions of moslems, many catholics of protestants, even many members of a certain branch of christianity of another branch.

And giving opinions of religious nature is possible here at Spiritual Forum, it has its right here.

Personal attacks, on the other hand, ...

he has tried to claim that christian principles as embodied and exemplified in the example and teachings of Christ equate to the Nazi ideology, and when i provided evidence that this was not the case as exemplified by Jehovah's Witnesses who were one of the first to enter the concentration camps as a direct consequence of upholding christian principles then it became personal, highly offensive, completely insensitive and betrayed an incredible ignorance, really, it was too much. i have read many personal accounts of the suffering of those people who had the misfortune to be incarcerated at the hands of the Nazis, both before and during the regime and afterward at the hands of the Russians, they are too harrowing to relate, thus this attempt to correlate the two was beyond the scope of reason based on the evidence. he should know that, but no, now he must berate us for having died rather than kill another human being on the basis that we love god and our fellow humans, judge for yourself whether it is the words and actions of a sane individual!

Originally posted by divegeester
Unbelieveable! Irrespective of arguments about christiaity or god or whatever, you live an extreme dream world of your own.

Do you really think these photos constitute "facts" that support your extremeist thinking, and despite your claims of "reason" you are an extremist, your hate of christians eminates from you. If you were the head of any or ...[text shortened]... nor relevant.

I suggest you get some therapy for whatever happened to you in the past.

I would rather take my chances with the third Reich, than these guys!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am sorry this is still completely unacceptable and flawed, those witnesses who were decapitated, tortured, their wives beaten before their very eyes were the victims of a human ideology, deny it you cannot, and what is more this has absolutely nothing to do with what the ancient Jews did nor can your pathetic attempts to correlate the two be justif ...[text shortened]... o died at the hands of the Nazis for following Christian principles were in any sense like them.

I condemn all instances of genocide, regardless of who the victims were. It is morally wrong in every case, without exception. You, however, will not do that. You steadfastly defend the cases of genocide committed by your god and claim that such crimes can be justified. Unless you are prepared to recant this position and condemn the actions of your god for drowning the world, then you are a supporter of genocide. In that case you are the moral equivalent of a Nazi war criminal. If you will not condemn a crime as heinous as genocide in EVERY instance, then all your other pious platitudes amount to a hill of beans.

Will you condemn your god for drowning virtually the entire population of the earth? Yes or no? Will you condemn him for ordering the slaughter of the population of Jericho? Yes or no? If your answers to these questions are "no", then your picture belongs next to Hitler's in the annals of history.

Originally posted by divegeester
Unbelieveable! Irrespective of arguments about christiaity or god or whatever, you live an extreme dream world of your own.

Do you really think these photos constitute "facts" that support your extremeist thinking, and despite your claims of "reason" you are an extremist, your hate of christians eminates from you. If you were the head of any or ...[text shortened]... nor relevant.

I suggest you get some therapy for whatever happened to you in the past.

I do not hate christians. But I am deeply opposed to religious fundamentalists, regardless of what religion they belong to. They are the enemies of civilization. But as I said, pointing out the deep connection between christianity and the Nazis was not my main point.

I am concerned with whether you are willing to join the civilized world in condemning genocide, regardless of who commits it. If you only condemn the Nazi genocide, but defend your god's divinely sanctioned genocide, then you are yourself the moral equivalent of a Nazi war criminal. Do you condemn the Great Flood? Yes or no?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is it that you don't understand about love of god, self sacrifice and love of ones fellow human being as embodied and exemplified in the example and teachings of Christ?

I understand that torture, murder and genocide are wholly incompatible with any concept of love, and that any god who resorts to those tactics, for whatever reason, is a barbarous monster.

Originally posted by rwingett
I do not hate christians. But I am deeply opposed to religious fundamentalists, regardless of what religion they belong to. They are the enemies of civilization. But as I said, pointing out the deep connection between christianity and the Nazis was not my main point.

I am concerned with whether you are willing to join the civilized world in condemning g ...[text shortened]... ourself the moral equivalent of a Nazi war criminal. Do you condemn the Great Flood? Yes or no?

Your question is excellent, your presumptive judgment isn't, it's just irritating and argumentative, you don't need it to make your point.

I will try to answer you as clearly and honestly as I can regarding my reasoning.

Firstly I believe that God exists as a living God. If you can make the assumption for a moment that God is living and real, then your question demands reason and explanation rather than simply saying "God doesn't exist" because he is a murderer. If you already choose that God dosn't exist, then why woul you bother to try to understand him - a naturally default position I fully accept and understand.

I believe and trust that God always does what is right; I believe that God is a living God, and able to justfy his actions. Abraham challenged God on this issue; to defend the innocent of Sodom and Gomorah, and God responded in Gen 18:25 "will not the judge of all the earth do what is right/fair".

I condem murder and genocide of course I do, whether in the so called name of God" or otherwise, and I do not under any circumstances believe that just because God excerised judgement on people in those days, that anyone is therefore justifed in committing murder, for thier own reasons. Just to claim "in the name of God" (any God) does not make it right, to claim so is to not know God and is evil.

It's a very pertinant question you ask, and one that has challenged me over the years. I chose to trust God because I also see a real living God who is calling a people for himself over the ages, and one day I will reason with him face to face, as you could if you chose to.

I cannot disown him just because I don't fully understand something he has done. And furthermore, just because I don't understand it or like it, doesn't mean it didn't happen or that God doesn't exist. Either way I want to reason with him on it not disown him.

I've answered you as best as can, as honestly as possible.