after death question

Originally posted by rwingett
I condemn all instances of genocide, regardless of who the victims were. It is morally wrong in every case, without exception. You, however, will not do that. You steadfastly defend the cases of genocide committed by your god and claim that such crimes can be justified. Unless you are prepared to recant this position and condemn the actions of your god for ...[text shortened]... hese questions are "no", then your picture belongs next to Hitler's in the annals of history.

will you for your part therefore make a recantation and state that the Christian principles of love and self sacrifice as demonstrated in the face of almost unspeakable human suffering, as understood, adopted as well as demonstrated in the case of Jehovah's witnesses in the Nazi death camps, as well as others, is in no way synonymous with Nazi ideology, for that is what you are saying! it is not enough that fathers were dragged from their homes, children from their mothers, husband from their wives, but now we must suffer the indignation of being called to account for the stance that was taken, and on the basis of being supporters of genocide!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
will you for your part therefore make a recantation and state that the Christian principles of love and self sacrifice as demonstrated in the face of almost unspeakable human suffering, as understood, adopted as well as demonstrated in the case of Jehovah's witnesses in the Nazi death camps, as well as others, is in no way synonymous with Nazi ideolo ...[text shortened]... led to account for the stance that was taken, and on the basis of being supporters of genocide!

Quit side stepping the issue with your maudlin theatrics and answer my question.

Will you condemn your god for committing genocide during the Great Flood? Yes or no? Will you condemn him for ordering the slaughter of the population of Jericho? Yes or no? Are murder and genocide acceptable tactics if divinely sanctioned?

YES

or

NO

Originally posted by divegeester
Your question is excellent, your presumptive judgment isn't, it's just irritating and argumentative, you don't need it to make your point.

I will try to answer you as clearly and honestly as I can regarding my reasoning.

Firstly I believe that God exists as a living God. If you can make the assumption for a moment that God is living and real, then ...[text shortened]... not disown him.

I've answered you as best as can, as honestly as possible.

I am not asking you to disown your god. I am asking you to truthfully examine the contradictory attributes that are attributed to him. There are several options for you to take without disowning him that I can see.

The most obvious would be drop any pretense toward biblical inerrancy and biblical literalism. You could claim that those things never really happened, that they're just fables. But if you insist that the bible is inerrant and should be read literally, then you must figure out a way to reconcile morally repugnant actions with a god who is allegedly all loving. I don't see how this is possible. This conception of god would be contradictory and therefore incoherent.

Another theodicy sometimes used is that god is simply not all loving. The horror stories recounted in the bible certainly make this approach seem likely. But is a god who commits genocide and who sanctions mass murder worthy of worship? It might be a smart strategy to try to appease such a wrathful creature, but worship him? I don't think so.

If you want to claim that you simply cannot understand why your god does what he does, or that his moral standards are unknowable, then you have no basis for claiming that he is a god of love. He must adhere to a standard of love that is understandable to human beings, or they have no basis for claiming that he is a loving god. At best you could say that your god is simply unknowable, or that no specific attributes about his character can be known.

But I see no way for you to maintain belief in a god who is allegedly all loving and who both commits genocide and sanctions mass murder. Something's got to give with that story.

Originally posted by rwingett
Quit side stepping the issue with your maudlin theatrics and answer my question.

Will you condemn your god for committing genocide during the Great Flood? Yes or no? Will you condemn him for ordering the slaughter of the population of Jericho? Yes or no? Are murder and genocide acceptable tactics if divinely sanctioned?

YES

or

NO

until you issue an apology and make a recantation i will not answer any one you're questions, for it is highly offensive, morally insensitive, blatantly ignorant of the facts, a disgrace to the memory of those who were murdered to denigrate such beautiful human beings and make them synonymous with Nazi ideology.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
until you issue an apology and make a recantation i will not answer any one you're questions, for it is highly offensive, morally insensitive, blatantly ignorant of the facts, a disgrace to the memory of those who were murdered to denigrate such beautiful human beings and make them synonymous with Nazi ideology.

You are a complete waste of my time. Since you will not even answer the question of whether you disapprove of genocide, I will maintain my position that you are the moral equivalent of a Nazi war criminal. You maintain that genocide and murder are acceptable tactics if divinely committed and sanctioned, but you're too cowardly to say so. You are beneath the contempt of every decent human being.

Originally posted by rwingett
You are a complete waste of my time. Since you will not even answer the question of whether you disapprove of genocide, I will maintain my position that you are the moral equivalent of a Nazi war criminal. You maintain that genocide and murder are acceptable tactics if divinely committed and sanctioned, but you're too cowardly to say so. You are beneath the contempt of every decent human being.

that's rich coming from a completely insane, ill informed, moral degenerate like you, what a truly complete imbecile you have proved to be. let the forum bear witness that those who were killed by the hands of the Nazis for upholding christian principles in the face of unspeakable horror and human suffering are now to be regarded as synonymous with those who put them to death, what a sick being you are!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
he has tried to claim that christian principles as embodied and exemplified in the example and teachings of Christ equate to the Nazi ideology, and when i provided evidence that this was not the case as exemplified by Jehovah's Witnesses who were one of the first to enter the concentration camps as a direct consequence of upholding christian principl ...[text shortened]... our fellow humans, judge for yourself whether it is the words and actions of a sane individual!

And why do you take offend personally?
Because you suspect that he might be right?
Or because you cannot think of a way to explain so he understand your view?
Or perhaps because you think he have no right to have an opinion in the matter?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
And why do you take offend personally?
Because you suspect that he might be right?
Or because you cannot think of a way to explain so he understand your view?
Or perhaps because you think he have no right to have an opinion in the matter?

Fabian, dear sir, it is quite simple. Christians were subject to horrendous unspeakable cruelty in the Nazi death camps (as were others), why? because they refused to hail hitler. this is based on a christian principle. they refused to take up arms in view of the teachings and example of Christ. why? because it is based on a christian principle. they could have signed a piece of paper, made a recantation and got freedom, they refused. why? this is based on a christian principle. they were prepared for and submitted to death rather than compromise. why? this is based on a christian principle.

so when i hear someone state, quite contrary to the actual evidence that we are the protagonists of genocide and murder, do you not think, on the basis of such testimony that i have a right to call into question the validity of that statement?

http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource/jehovahs/jehovahsw.php

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Fabian, dear sir, it is quite simple. Christians were subject to horrendous unspeakable cruelty in the Nazi death camps (as were others), why? because they refused to hail hitler. this is based on a christian principle. they refused to take up arms in view of the teachings and example of Christ. why? because it is based on a christian principle ...[text shortened]... he validity of that statement?

http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource/jehovahs/jehovahsw.php

But again: Why do you take it personally? No personal attack was intended from his side?
You think he's plain wrong? Yes, everyone of us are plain wrong from time to time. What's new with that?

Originally posted by bill718
Non belivers can believe in an afterlife (or anything else) if they wish. If however you sincerely believe there is no God...You'd better be right!😏

This is the perfect example as to why I can't stand the Christian faith. The smug attitde is very non becoming. The idea of being very happy about going the heaven, as the non Christian burns in Hell is an abomination to decency.
The first qualification of a true religion should be that it is a good thing. Simply good would be a beginning. The Chistian thing appears to be a bad thing by it's very nature, and dogma. It's amazing that it ever caught on as a world religion. Where is the appeal I ask you ?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
that's rich coming from a completely insane, ill informed, moral degenerate like you, what a truly complete imbecile you have proved to be. let the forum bear witness that those who were killed by the hands of the Nazis for upholding christian principles in the face of unspeakable horror and human suffering are now to be regarded as synonymous with those who put them to death, what a sick being you are!

You are a hypocrite for being against genocide only half the time. Since you wholeheartedly approve of genocide, torture, and mass murder when it suits you, and will not answer my question, this makes you a craven coward. You disgust me. You are a fraud, a charlatan and a liar.

Originally posted by rwingett
You are a hypocrite for being against genocide only half the time. Since you wholeheartedly approve of genocide, torture, and mass murder when it suits you, and will not answer my question, this makes you a craven coward. You disgust me. You are a fraud, a charlatan and a liar.

wow, bravely spoken from behind the comfort of your personal computer, do you also do road rage from behind the comfort of your steering wheel, or send other hate mail from behind the anonymity of a poisoned letter.

perhaps you can tell the forum how we have engaged in mass murder while being tortured by the Nazis, perhaps you can relate the principles that allow us to torture others while being reviled by the SS, perhaps we were lying when we refused to sign the papers and make a recantation knowing that it meant freedom from almost certain death, for you have nothing but the putrid and hate filled meanderings of a truly despicable mind. until you do so you are a non entity, for your slanderous remarks have been exposed on solid testimony of those who gave their lives for christian principles, but you cannot comprehend this for it is beyond the realms of your prejudice and loathing of others. were they cowards as you have asserted that even the might of the SS could not break, were they fomenting genocide while languishing in the Russian gulags? you are the worst type of liar, for you believe even your own deception, so i advise you, go back to the stone from which you crawled from under and reflect on the beauty and majesty of Christian principles that were able to transcend not only the death camps of the SS, but death itself.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
But again: Why do you take it personally? No personal attack was intended from his side?
You think he's plain wrong? Yes, everyone of us are plain wrong from time to time. What's new with that?

my dear sir, he overstepped the mark in trying to make some rather beautiful principles synonymous with Nazi ideology.

the whole basis for this is that there are acts of war documented in the bible and perpetrated by the ancient Jews. he does not like this because some attempts have been made to justify the killing by so called christian apologists. for example in the case of the Canaanites, some have asserted that divine retribution was sanctioned because of depraved sexual practices as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, or on the biblical and archeological evidence that they practiced human and child sacrifices.

i myself do not attempt to justify it but simply accept that it happened and that it has been documented, yet because i take this stance i am a liar, a coward, a genocidal maniac with sadistic tendencies and the most loathsome of human creatures.

when the Christ arrived, he brought with him the most dynamic and far reaching teachings that the world has known since or until now, for no longer was hate acceptable, even in the case of enemies, no longer was war to be sanctioned on any basis, on the contrary love of ones fellow human being was the new law, people were no longer to live solely for themselves but were to be self sacrificing as exemplified by the Christ, yet this fact escapes him and he would tarnish all who adhered to these knew and higher principles with the same brush. does that seem reasonable to you? does it take into consideration developments over time? the evidence that i provided was meant to illustrate this, but because it contravened his prejudice and deep seated hatred, he could not take it and like all liars resorted to slander. i was incensed at the shortsightedness, for it seemed unjust and a very poor portrayal of the reality, but judge for yourself the import of the testimony that i gave and see if these things are not so.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
wow, bravely spoken from behind the comfort of your personal computer, do you also do road rage from behind the comfort of your steering wheel, or send other hate mail from behind the anonymity of a poisoned letter.

perhaps you can tell the forum how we have engaged in mass murder while being tortured by the Nazis, perhaps you can relate the pri ...[text shortened]... ian principles that were able to transcend not only the death camps of the SS, but death itself.

I condemn genocide in every instance. Nazi or divine. You do not. You still pathetically dance around the matter and refuse to condemn the genocide of the Great Flood. Or the mass murder of the people of Jericho. Or any of the other crimes perpetrated either by your god or in his name. As long as you maintain that those crimes are permissible, then you will forever be the moral equivalent of Adolf Hitler.

Here's a little statistic for you. According to your own bible accounts, your god is directly responsible for the deaths of approximately 32,920,670 people*. This is admittedly a very rough estimate, as the number of people killed in the Great Flood and certain other crimes cannot be known. But its a ballpark figure. 30 million people that your god either killed directly or ordered someone else to kill. That's five times more than the number that died in the Nazi Holocaust. But that's fine with you, because when god kills it apparently doesn't count. I seriously doubt that you'd bat an eyelash if your god killed another 30 million. Or if his deranged followers claimed to be following god's orders in doing so. Your sanctimonious display of outrage is a complete sham. You are a contemptible maggot.

* http://flux64.wordpress.com/2007/02/27/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list-and-estimated-total/

Originally posted by rwingett
Just like the Nazis sent their long list of perceived enemies to the concentration camps, you christians would send your even longer list of perceived enemies to god's eternal concentration camp. Your dogma explicitly endorses murder, torture and genocide as legitimate means toward its goal. Your god's moral standing is several notches below Hitler's.

You are a sad case, my friend, and an agry one to boot. I feel sorry for you to have to live with such baggage. Anyway, Christians are commanded to love their enemies. Nowhere does it say to kill anyone, so you are a liar, too. Put that in your dogma and smoke it!