Originally posted by lucifershammer The little girls and virgin women would be dead (or worse) if the Israelites did not take them under their wing. If starvation does not get them, other tribes will.
Remember, this isn't the 21st century A.D. we're talking about.
ha ha ha ha
You do have answers to everything, don't you LH?
ha ha ha ha
We'll kill all those sinners, and "take the young girls and virgin women under our wings".
Yes, a good answer, indeed.
[What I'm saying is, I don't think the israelites captured the women to protect them, if you know what I mean?]
Originally posted by Ragnorak So, what you're saying is that if a priest/preacher/rabbii/Mullah, ie: the voices of god, tells the people that a certain race are sinners, then genocide is ok? And rape of young girls is your god given reward for committing this genocide?
To put it another way? As an anti-abortion christian, it is plainly writtenn in the bible for me to see that abort ...[text shortened]... the eyes of god, so I have divine permission to murder abortion doctors. Or homosexuals?
D
1. No.
As I've said elsewhere in this forum, I do not believe many of the wars and incidents described in the Pentateuch actually occurred. The primary lesson to be learnt here is moral, not historical. The Midianite incident, for instance, can be read as a parable against idolatory, prostitution and having relations with pagans.
2. Who says they were raped? The women/girls who were menstuating were probably taken as wives and concubines; those who were too young were probably taken as servants.
As I've said elsewhere in this forum, I do not believe many of the wars and incidents described in the Pentateuch actually occurred. The primary lesson to be learnt here is moral, not historical. The Midianite incident, for instance, can be read as a parable against idolatory, prostitution and having relations with pagans.
2. Who says the ...[text shortened]... vants.
This site might interest you:
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
3. No and no.
1. Makes sense.
2. Naïve. If I take a woman by force as a wife or concubine, what do you suppose happens on the wedding night?
Originally posted by lucifershammer Yes, I know what you mean. And I think you're making a serious mistake seeing the situation through 21st century Western sensibilities.
You're right about that in a sense. I can't sit here now and judge a people who lived many centuries ago, because they did things that are not approved of today. But the bible is a very real scripture to a lot of people, telling them how to live. And if it says that Moses was told by the LORD to exterminate a whole city full of people and kidnap their women because these people lived in sin, then that has to be taken seriously. There is a discrepency there. On one hand the bible promotes behaviour that essentially means to preserve life, forgive people for their sins and be tolerant - and on the other hand the same bible (albeit different books) tells us that it is OK to commit horrible deeds if God himself tells us to. I don't take it as unlikely that Moses didn't really hear God but rather wanted to exterminate his enemies and enjoy their women.
Originally posted by lucifershammer Who says they were taken by force? Why do you think they would not have joined the Israelites of their own accord?
Take a look at the site when it loads.
LH!? Do you seriously believe, that if I had a bunch of followers, and we charged into whatever city you're in, murdered all men and women but those women whom are virgins, that they would go willingly with me and my men?
Originally posted by stocken You're right about that in a sense. I can't sit here now and judge a people who lived many centuries ago, because they did things that are not approved of today. But the bible is a very real scripture to a lot of people, telling them how to live. And if it says that Moses was told by the LORD to exterminate a whole city full of people and kidnap their women ...[text shortened]... s didn't really hear God but rather wanted to exterminate his enemies and enjoy their women.
The Midianites were not punished for simply "living in sin". Rather, their crime was what they did with respect to the Israelites:
(a) Prostituting their own wives to Israelite men
(b) Using that to get the Israelites to commit idolatory
Even Christ himself pointed out that causing someone else to sin was one of the gravest sins.
Originally posted by stocken LH!? Do you seriously believe, that if I had a bunch of followers, and we charged into whatever city you're in, murdered all men and women but those women whom are virgins, that they would go willingly with me and my men?
Originally posted by lucifershammer The Midianites were not punished for simply "living in sin". Rather, their crime was what they did with respect to the Israelites:
(a) Prostituting their own wives to Israelite men
(b) Using that to get the Israelites to commit idolatory
Even Christ himself pointed out that causing someone else to sin was one of the gravest sins.
So what we've learned from this discussion is this. If I commit a horrible crime against humanity, it will be considered a good deed if:
1) God tells me to do it for whatever reason,
2) The people being punished "tempted" me to do something that's forbidden according to my own principle of living, and
3) In the time which I'm living both of the above are valid reasons for comitting the crime in question.
Originally posted by lucifershammer What other options would they have?
Exactly!!! It's a rape when you take away all of the options for the woman and then have sex with her. So, the women didn't go willingly because they wanted to follow the murderers of their fathers, brothers and mothers (and potentially naughty sisters), but because they had no other option. Is that a good thing to do in your opinion?
Originally posted by stocken So what we've learned from this discussion is this. If I commit a horrible crime against humanity, it will be considered a good deed if:
1) God tells me to do it for whatever reason,
2) The people being punished "tempted" me to do something that's forbidden according to my own principle of living, and
3) In the time which I'm living both of the above are valid reasons for comitting the crime in question.
Let's see if we can get to this another way.
Since brought up Hitler earlier, do you think the Allies were justified in going to war against Germany?
Originally posted by stocken Exactly!!! It's a rape when you take away all of the options for the woman and then have sex with her. So, the women didn't go willingly because they wanted to follow the murderers of their fathers, brothers and mothers (and potentially naughty sisters), but because they had no other option. Is that a good thing to do in your opinion?
Once again, you're applying a modern Western understanding of "rape" and "force".
Why would women willingly follow the murderers of their fathers, brothers and mothers? Presumably because they didn't want to starve. And presumably because they didn't want to be sitting ducks for the next tribe that comes along (and this time they really would be raped). And presumably because the Israelites would protect them, feed them, take care of their needs and assimilate them into their society.
Is it the perfect situation? Of course not. But, given the constraints of society, civilisation and technology at the time, it wasn't a monstrous one.
Originally posted by lucifershammer Let's see if we can get to this another way.
Since brought up Hitler earlier, do you think the Allies were justified in going to war against Germany?
War, yes. Had the allies killed every single german male and non-virgin female, then kidnap their virgins for their self to do with what they'd please, I'd have to say no.
Originally posted by stocken War, yes. Had the allies killed every single german male and non-virgin female, then kidnap their virgins for their self to do with what they'd please, I'd have to say no.
Don't jump the gun.
Now, the Allied action produced plenty of German widows and mothers who lost their sons. Allied bombing of German cities killed hundreds, if not thousands, of German children and produced thousands of orphans.
All the women Children
17 Jan '06 15:251 edit
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