Originally posted by twhitehead
They do not need backing up with argument as they are directly implied in the definition of omnipotent and omniscient.
omnipotent:
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.
omniscient:
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
Oh yes they do need backing up because as I hope I am showing in my other posts , the implication or argument is based on a limited human view of God being stuck in a timeline like you are and being less than omnipotent. The implication is correct only if you input a certain kind of god , but RWINGETT is inputting the wrong data from the wrong starting point.
You see , if you say God is omnipotent then you must logically follow the next step. God is free. Therefore the foundations of existence are not based on determinism (which is a vital component of RWINGETTS argument).
If God is omnipotent then one can assume that God is not dependant on anything else otherwise there would be some other more powerful God that he would be dependant on more powerful than him. Therefore he is the Uncaused Cause. If he is not dependant (or determined) then he is free from determinism , he is totally free and has a free will all of his own which is not reliant on any other cause. . Therefore existence cannot be totally mechanistic or deterministic as RWINGETT suggests because there is at least one thing (God) that is free. If God is ominpotent then we can presume that he has enough power to be able to introduce a little of this freedom into the universe? (ie US). Omnipotence in my book turns out to support free will. RWINGETTS god is not omnipotent enough to be an Uncaused Cause. Even RWINGETT would have to accept that a truely omnipotent God has free will! RWINGETT'S god is not powerful enough to create free will because he's not even free himself.
Now as for omniscience, well if he is omnipotent then can we assume he is not trapped in time and actually beyond petty stuff like timelines? He would be eternal without beginning or end. This means that for him time has no real meaning. It's a phenomena that came into being with the universe like gravity. It's perverse to suggest that he would be limited by it if he was omnipotent????
So why do you guys persist with this silly idea of God PRE -dicting things as if he was like you and that's the only way he might know anything? God can be present at every moment of your life in one instant or he can spend trillions of eons watching you throw a ball into the air or clean your teeth. You think he is in YOUR present trying vainly to predict YOUR future when in fact to God there is no past present or future - he lives in all of them at the same "time".
RWINGETT'S argument only has credence against the backdrop of a totally limited and time trapped god. But it is RWINGETT that is time trapped and limited NOT God. In his case that old Atheist mantra , " man makes God in his own image" has rung true. His God is not omnipotent enough , his God is not even eternal! It is modelled on him , but God is so incredibly different from him that he cannot imagine how God can be both in the future and in the past simultaneuosly.He only knows that the only way HE could know outcomes would be by looking along a timeline and predicting them He cannot imagine how God can know in any other way than HE does so HE automatically assumes God knows what he knows because he is predicting them. From this he thinks he can logically assume that god pre-determines things because otherwise god couldn't possibly know (because, for him, it's impossible to know the future unless it's pre determined ). Pre-determination is the only logical solution for RWINGETT because he has ruled out any other kind of omniscience than the one he has imagined for himself. I must admit that I find it hard too , but the theory of relativity is wierd too and requires imagination and yet we accept that often enough. Once you get a hint or grasp of how incredibly mind boggling the real God might actually be it's a little easier to imagine how what you thought MUST be implied actually isn't.
I've posted on this before here's an extract from the free will debate...
" In order to have something PRE -determined then it has to be decided or set in stone BEFORE it happens. However, God does not PRE determine anything because he only knows AS it is happening (ie in the future and NOT before). He knows because he watches you making free choices in the future but there's no PREdiction or PREdetermination involved other than in your imagination.
Think of a choice you have made in the past that you now know the outcome of. Because you know the outcome of that choice does it therefore mean that that choice was logically predetermined? If so why?
The confusion in your argument is that you assume that because God knows what we do in the future (his present) that it is inevitable. The key thing here is that it's not inevitable for us and it only becomes inevitable to him AFTER and NOT BEFORE it happens. You make the same mistake Conrau K makes in placing God in our time and not his. You know the outcome of World War two but does that logically mean it was inevitable or there could only have ever been one outcome? Of course , you are aware of the possibility of quite a few different outcomes , but you are aware of what happened (but it wasn't due to predetermination or inevitability but just timezones)
You imagine that God is with us in this present moment thinking "there's only one way this can possibly go and if you gave this a million goes it would still turn out the same way" but it's actually more like " I can see right now how this could go many different ways and you have lots of choices available to you , if you had a million opportunities there would be lots of outcomes but you can choose only once and I know which one you chose in the end."
In one sense you could say it is 'inevitable' to God and all laid out in front of him , but as long as it's not inevitable for US then we are still free.
A lot of you here are just saying God's omniscience 'implies' no free will or it 'somehow' predetermines things and then you think you have made a good point. Where's the back up argument though. Unless you can argue a causal link or why it predetermines things then you're not going anywhere."