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Originally posted by josephwWhat you believe is garbage.
Great point. Wish I had thought of that. 😕
What's the problem? Is it too easy for you?
What makes you think you can do something for God that will gain you admittance into His presents?
I'm not being sarcastic Raj. I'm simply telling you what I believe, and I can back it up with the word of God.
You are picking parts of the word of God which suits your purpose and your personality type.
Basically lazy people look for a free ride to salvation.
Christ said there is work to do. Doing the will of Christ gives salvation.
Just get off your lazy butt and go do what Christ said to do.
Faith without works is DEAD.
What ... too hard for you?
Originally posted by Rajk999"Doing the will of Christ gives salvation."
What you believe is garbage.
You are picking parts of the word of God which suits your purpose and your personality type.
Basically lazy people look for a free ride to salvation.
Christ said there is work to do. Doing the will of Christ gives salvation.
Just get off your lazy butt and go do what Christ said to do.
Faith without works is DEAD.
What ... too hard for you?
You know, I think we're having a problem here with semantics.
I'm not saying at all that doing the will of Christ isn't proof of one's faith. Or that some how one can do whatever one wants just because they are saved.
My question to you is this. How can you expect to be saved if salvation requires one do keep the law, when keeping the law is imposible?
Don't you agree then that Jesus is the only human being that ever kept the law perfectly?
If keeping the law is a requirement for salvation, and no one can do it, then how does one get saved?
Do you not agree that one cannot enter into the presents of God with sin?
If so, then how does one have their sin taken away? By working it away?
What was the point in Jesus dying then?
Originally posted by josephwChrist death on the cross does not relieve us of the duty to love our fellow man as ourselves and to do good works. Christ said very clearly that this is a requirement for salvation.
What was the point in Jesus dying then?
As James said FAITH (a declaration with your mouth) + WORKS SAVES.
Faith without works is dead.
So lets go our merry way believing what we choose. Hows that?
You choose Martin Luther.
I choose Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by Rajk999You're stumped aren't you?
Christ death on the cross does not relieve us of the duty to love our fellow man as ourselves and to do good works. Christ said very clearly that this is a requirement for salvation.
As James said FAITH (a declaration with your mouth) + WORKS SAVES.
Faith without works is dead.
So lets go our merry way believing what we choose. Hows that?
You choose Martin Luther.
I choose Jesus Christ.
You can't answer the question because you don't know why Jesus died on the cross.
Without Christ's death, burial, and resurrection there is no salvation no matter how hard you try to keep the law.
This is obviously a concept you are unable to grasp.
Don't you get it. YOU CAN'T KEEP THE LAW. How are you going to be saved by keeping the law if you can't do it?
It's a no-brainer!
As David said, I paraphrase, "blessed is the man to whom God does not impute sin".
Without the blood of Christ there is NO salvation. No matter how hard you work. Works CAN NOT save. Works are only evidence of faith.
Yes, faith without works is dead. But works can not save.
Only faith in Jesus and the work He did on the cross can save you.
Originally posted by josephwIm stumped by your stupidity.
You're stumped aren't you?....
Works CAN NOT save. Works are only evidence of faith.
Yes, faith without works is dead. But works can not save.
Only faith in Jesus and the work He did on the cross can save you.
In one sentence you are saying that works is essential.
In the next, that works cannot save you.
It's the old argument between what Paul said (in Scripture) versus what James said(in Scripture). I think the two are in agreement. Your Salvation is based on what you believe about Christ. Your faith is what you do (works) in response to that belief in Christ. The works themselves don't save but your works are because of what you believe. People in Christendom have argued over this. While on the surface these seem to disagree they don't. The law was/is like a School master that drives you towards grace. The book of Romans talks about this extensively. I think the book of James is good because it is telling Christians to put their Money where there mouth is!
Manny
Originally posted by menace71So faith = works.
It's the old argument between what Paul said (in Scripture) versus what James said(in Scripture). I think the two are in agreement. Your Salvation is based on what you believe about Christ. Your faith is what you do (works) in response to that belief in Christ. The works themselves don't save but your works are because of what you believe. People in Christe ...[text shortened]... s good because it is telling Christians to put their Money where there mouth is!
Manny
Romans 3:20 reads 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
So once again I would say that works will not get you in to heaven. We can't earn our salvation it's a free gift of God. I think people say will than Christianity is a cheap religion all you have to do is believe God and accept his gift to you. My Dad struggled with that concept. He felt that he had to do something to earn his was in to heaven. I think Christians do the works they do because of God and his gift but not to earn their way in to heaven. I guess I think of it from personal experience. I know I'm a sinner am I going to be so bold as to come before God and say Look at what I did during my life now let me in?
Manny
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Originally posted by menace71I admit to being confused about this debate. Here is an argument:
Romans 3:20 reads 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
So once again I would say that works will not get you in to heaven. We can't earn our salvation it's a free gift of God. I think people say will than Christianity is a cheap religion all you have to do is believe Go old as to come before God and say Look at what I did during my life now let me in?
Manny
1) One is saved if and only if one has faith.
2) If one has faith, then one will perform good works.
3) So, if one is saved, then one will perform good works.
4) So, if one does not perform good works, one is not saved.
The argument is valid, so if you have a problem with the conclusion you have to reject either premise (1) or (2). Premise (3) follows from the conjunction of (1) and (2), and (4) is just the contrapositive of (3). If you accept the conclusion, then you should have no problem with people who claim that good works are necessary for salvation. The argument shows that good works can be necessary for salvation simply because they will follow from having faith, where faith is taken to be both necessary and sufficient for salvation.
Originally posted by bbarrSure I would agree with you. Good works would be a sign of salvation but the works in and of themselves is not the basis of what saves a person. Then anyone who did good works would be saved. The good works are a result of a person's relation with God. Thats what I believe at least. People within Christendom go around and around on this issue. I don't see the conflict that some say. What the book of James says compared to what Paul wrote in his epistles. I think they are actually in agreement.
I admit to being confused about this debate. Here is an argument:
1) One is saved if and only if one has faith.
2) If one has faith, then one will perform good works.
3) So, if one is saved, then one will perform good works.
4) So, if one does not perform good works, one is not saved.
The argument is valid, so if you have a problem with the conclusio ...[text shortened]... ollow from having faith, where faith is taken to be both necessary and sufficient for salvation.
Manny
Originally posted by bbarrThe confusion begins, I think, when we fail to distinguish between a "heart" faith and an "intellectual" faith. The second chapter of James verses 18-20 clearly distinguishes the two:
I admit to being confused about this debate. Here is an argument:
1) One is saved if and only if one has faith.
2) If one has faith, then one will perform good works.
3) So, if one is saved, then one will perform good works.
4) So, if one does not perform good works, one is not saved.
The argument is valid, so if you have a problem with the conclusio ...[text shortened]... ollow from having faith, where faith is taken to be both necessary and sufficient for salvation.
"But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?"
A "heart" faith is a radical change in the heart of a person which transforms their entire life and produces fruit for God's kingdom (fruit = heart peace, joy, loving-kindness, grace, hope, long-suffering, spiritual gifts, good works, etc.). The evidence of "heart" faith is not difficult to spot.
An "intellectual" faith, on the other hand, is a mere mental assent which affects no real change of character; no fruit is produced for God's kingdom, i.e., there is no evidence.
Originally posted by menace71Im flabbergasted !! (did I spell that right?) How can you say you agree with Bbarr and yet you say something else.
Sure I would agree with you. Good works would be a sign of salvation but the works in and of themselves is not the basis of what saves a person. Then anyone who did good works would be saved. The good works are a result of a person's relation with God. Thats what I believe at least. People within Christendom go around and around on this issue. I don't see t ...[text shortened]... mpared to what Paul wrote in his epistles. I think they are actually in agreement.
Manny
Faith and Works are separate and distinct. And this is in agreement with the teachings of Christ, Paul and particularly James who went into great detail about faith without works. Clearly, any idiot can see the difference. Basically James is referring to a 'Declaration of faith' OR if you like "Belief and Baptism' constitute the outward manifestation of ones faith. Works is the application of the commandments of Christ .. particularly 'love thy neighbour'. One is TALKING and the other is DOING.
Good works is essential, but nobody is claiming that works alone saves. Salvation comes from BOTH faith and good works. One cannot stand without the other. But faith (a declaration of faith) does not necessarily mean that good works will follow.
I agree with you 🙂 You know it mentions in the scriptures about arguing and wrangling over words which could lead to the ruin of those listening. I can find it but It's the heart of what the scriptures say. Maybe I'm being judgmental(more on myself that anyone else) but I think people a lot of times profess to be Christians but we don't see any outward result of this and that is frustrating. We see the results as people say ahhh look at those Christian hypocrites. I for a long time would go to church and be very frustrated by just sitting in a pew but not seeing or doing anything for Christ. I agree with you just from personal experience. I also would say from personal experience that we need to ask Christ to help us love our neighbors/enemies. To do what the book of James says visit sick people in prison. To have compassion on all around us for the sake of Christ.
Manny
Originally posted by Rajk999"Im stumped by your stupidity."
Im stumped by your stupidity.
In one sentence you are saying that works is essential.
In the next, that works cannot save you.
I'm debating with somebody that tells me that one must obey Jesus and keep the law for salvation, but resorts to name calling in direct opposition to his own argument. Doesn't sound like loving your nieghbor as yourself to me. I think you proved my point.
You can't keep the law Raj no matter how hard you try. That's why Jesus paid your sins debt for you so that His righteousness can be imputed to you so that you can be counted as fit for heaven as Jesus is Himself.
It's a beautiful thing once you understand it. I hope you will give it some more thought.
The object of our faith is Jesus and what He did for us at the cross.
God made it simple so that even a child can understand it.
If the object of your faith for salvation is the law, you will surely fail.
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Originally posted by bbarrIts' the object of ones' faith that is the issue.
I admit to being confused about this debate. Here is an argument:
1) One is saved if and only if one has faith.
2) If one has faith, then one will perform good works.
3) So, if one is saved, then one will perform good works.
4) So, if one does not perform good works, one is not saved.
The argument is valid, so if you have a problem with the conclusio ...[text shortened]... ollow from having faith, where faith is taken to be both necessary and sufficient for salvation.
The law is designed to bring one to God bacause it points out our weaknesses. The law was never intended to save.
The cross, on the other hand, shows us how great God's love is for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for our sins. Christ bore in His body on the cross the sins of the whole world.
When the cross, and the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus become the object of our faith, then God is justified in declairing us righteous.
It's all very simple really. It just depends on whether one will believe it or not.