Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Im stumped by your stupidity."

I'm debating with somebody that tells me that one must obey Jesus and keep the law for salvation, but resorts to name calling in direct opposition to his own argument. Doesn't sound like loving your nieghbor as yourself to me. I think you proved my point.

You can't keep the law Raj no matter how hard you try. Tha ...[text shortened]... rstand it.

If the object of your faith for salvation is the law, you will surely fail.[/b]

ECC 7:5 It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.

You understand? My harsh truthful words are better than your doctrine of lies.
God made it simple so that even a child can understand it.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
If the object of your faith for salvation not doing works, you will surely fail.

Originally posted by josephw
Its' the object of ones' faith that is the issue.

The law is designed to bring one to God bacause it points out our weaknesses. The law was never intended to save.

The cross, on the other hand, shows us how great God's love is for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for our sins. Christ bore in His body on the cross the sins of the whole ...[text shortened]... ous.

It's all very simple really. It just depends on whether one will believe it or not.

I wasn't confused about the content of the debate. I was confused by the fact that people were debating the faith/works thing at all, since the apparent tension between faith and works is so easily resolved.

Yes, all very simple. A magic man rose from the dead and absolved us of our sins, so that the giant invisible sky man would allow us through the gates of his celestial compound. Spare me the nonsense.

Originally posted by Rajk999
ECC 7:5 It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.

You understand? My harsh truthful words are better than your doctrine of lies.
God made it simple so that even a child can understand it.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
If the object of your faith for salvation not doing works, you will surely fail.

People who say things like "I'm stumped by your stupidity" show that they are mean-spirited and uncivil. I don't think that you are stupid, but you are certainly quite rude.

Originally posted by gaychessplayer
People who say things like "I'm stumped by your stupidity" show that they are mean-spirited and uncivil. I don't think that you are stupid, but you are certainly quite rude.

Well he wrote some foolishness and then asked me if I was stumped. So the only thing that stumped me was his stupidity.

Oh .. you have a short memory. That must be the third or fourth time you are telling me that I am rude. OK we get it. I am rude. I am rude. I am rude. I confess ... I am rude.

Now ..try to get past my rudeness and see if you can understand what I am saying. Its to your benefit. Those idiots will have you believe that all you need to do is proclaim your faith in Christ and you are saved. It aint so.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well he wrote some foolishness and then asked me if I was stumped. So the only thing that stumped me was his stupidity.

Oh .. you have a short memory. That must be the third or fourth time you are telling me that I am rude. OK we get it. I am rude. I am rude. I am rude. I confess ... I am rude.

Now ..try to get past my rudeness and see if you can und ...[text shortened]... believe that all you need to do is proclaim your faith in Christ and you are saved. It aint so.

Then do something about it, dumbass! If you know you're rude, change your behavior. It's not acceptable to say "OK I know I'm a child-molesting, knuckle-dragging, bugger-eatin' moron" and then continue being just that--if you recognize your inadequacies, FIX THEM.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Then do something about it, dumbass! If you know you're rude, change your behavior. It's not acceptable to say "OK I know I'm a child-molesting, knuckle-dragging, bugger-eatin' moron" and then continue being just that--if you recognize your inadequacies, FIX THEM.

So much for leading by example.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Then do something about it, dumbass! If you know you're rude, change your behavior. It's not acceptable to say "OK I know I'm a child-molesting, knuckle-dragging, bugger-eatin' moron" and then continue being just that--if you recognize your inadequacies, FIX THEM.

Well, there are times when slightly harsh language often produces results when sweet words cannot. There is a time for civil talk and a time for harsh talk. You are not too right in your head if you equate my harsh words with childmolestation. Im not fixing anything. There is nothing to be fixed except your silly doctirine.

I think a 'dumbass' Pinky. is someone who reads James and concludes that 'Faith without works is DEAD' to mean that that person still gets salvation .. Now thats a 'dumbass' Check the online dictionary under 'dumbass' its has your name there ... 😀

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The confusion begins, I think, when we fail to distinguish between a "heart" faith and an "intellectual" faith. The second chapter of James verses 18-20 clearly distinguishes the two:

"But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is o ...[text shortened]... f character; no fruit is produced for God's kingdom, i.e., there is no evidence.

Your well known theological, discriminative belief is that an atheist or another theist (and even another Christian of a different denomination than yours), is unable to "really" enjoy virtues like heart peace, joy, loving-kindness, hope, long suffering, spiritual gifts, good works etc due to the fact that he is not a "truly born by God" Christian. In order to buck up this profound nonsense, this time you invented the ...concept of the "heart faith" and the "intellectual faith"!

But my dear epi, how my "intellectual faith" (I accept this ...term of yours for the sake of the conversation) is a mere mental asset which affects no real change of the character of this miserable atheist? Aren't my acts the "fruits" of my existence? Aren't my ideals and my thoughts and my opinions and my beliefs, therefore my "intellectual faith", along with my insticts and my mind and my will, the cornerstone of my whole existence, my character included? On the other hand, isn't true that each act and attitude of mine it rebuilts and readjusts my character?

Originally posted by black beetle
Your well known theological, discriminative belief is that an atheist or another theist (and even another Christian of a different denomination than yours), is unable to "really" enjoy virtues like heart peace, joy, loving-kindness, hope, long suffering, spiritual gifts, good works etc due to the fact that he is not a "truly born by God" Christian. In o ...[text shortened]... true that each act and attitude of mine it rebuilts and readjusts my character?

Good Post. The start of false doctrines is the fabrication of terms to express that false doctrine in language that will appeal to the gullible. You seem to have to good sense to filter their eloquent words and see the rubbish underlying it.

Christ never make such a distinction between heart faith and ...whatever. In fact, if you look at the parable of the Good Samaritan, which was designed to show what 'love thy neighbour' really means, it was the non-believer who knew nothing of Christ, who showed love and caring for the beaten up man. The so-called believers, the priest and Levite who knew God and the law, walked away. Christ will reward each accordingly.

Epi and his heartfaith and interlectual faith is pile of BS, designed to fool the unwary and weak-minded.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well, there are times when slightly harsh language often produces results when sweet words cannot. There is a time for civil talk and a time for harsh talk. You are not too right in your head if you equate my harsh words with childmolestation. Im not fixing anything. There is nothing to be fixed except your silly doctirine.

I think a 'dumbass' Pinky. is ...[text shortened]... s a 'dumbass' Check the online dictionary under 'dumbass' its has your name there ... 😀

[knocking the dust off my sandals] Time to move on...

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Then do something about it, dumbass! If you know you're rude, change your behavior. It's not acceptable to say "OK I know I'm a child-molesting, knuckle-dragging, bugger-eatin' moron" and then continue being just that--if you recognize your inadequacies, FIX THEM.

There are few instances where rudeness is not the interpretation of the observer. Further, your rude admonishment of rudeness is curious and ironic. 😛

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well he wrote some foolishness and then asked me if I was stumped. So the only thing that stumped me was his stupidity.

Oh .. you have a short memory. That must be the third or fourth time you are telling me that I am rude. OK we get it. I am rude. I am rude. I am rude. I confess ... I am rude.

Now ..try to get past my rudeness and see if you can und ...[text shortened]... believe that all you need to do is proclaim your faith in Christ and you are saved. It aint so.

Those idiots will have you believe that all you need to do is proclaim your faith in Christ and you are saved. It aint so.

I've lost count of how many times it's been pointed out to you that nobody - and I mean NOBODY - is arguing that "all you need to do is proclaim your faith in Christ and you are saved."

The only reason I continue attempting to correct you over and over again is because I feel sorry for you. Although, it's becoming more and more apparent that you are intent on duking it out with this pet STRAWMAN of yours ad nauseum, and most likely for intensely self-righteous personal reasons.

What is truly sad is that you also continue to display a distinct lack of humility or grace. Instead you've proved to be hard-hearted, disrespectful, and insulting. Christ said, "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35). You show absolutely no love towards those who would be your brothers and sisters in Christ. None. In fact, the opposite.

Perhaps you may reason to yourself and with us that you are expressing your love by calling us "idiots" and "fools", but this is completely undercut by your unwillingness to place yourself in a position of understanding - even if just for the sake of understanding your opponent's argument.

Even if you were right, insulting those whom you wish to help is utterly counterproductive. I'm afraid this places you in a spiritually dangerous predicament, Raj. If you are unwilling to see that nobody here is advocating a faith void of works, that means you simply cannot be reasoned with. You are caught in a dark prison cell of your own making which your pride cannot allow you to leave. Furthermore, as you continue to misrepresent and insult those who disagree with you, you are perpetually failing to obey the command of Christ to be perfect as your father in heaven, since to do so is to bless those who curse you and love your enemy.

When Christ says to love your enemy, he doesn't mean call them "idiots" and "fools". He means what He says: LOVE them. Really love them. You need to examine yourself and see if you are truly capable of loving your enemy. Not just through theoretical good works, but also in your words, and in your heart.

If you find that it is not possible to do, then you need to get born again.

Originally posted by bbarr
I wasn't confused about the content of the debate. I was confused by the fact that people were debating the faith/works thing at all, since the apparent tension between faith and works is so easily resolved.

Yes, all very simple. A magic man rose from the dead and absolved us of our sins, so that the giant invisible sky man would allow us through the gates of his celestial compound. Spare me the nonsense.

Spare me your redicule.

If it were so easily resolved, then why is the debate still raging after 2000 years?

Got it all figured out don't you?

Originally posted by black beetle
Your well known theological, discriminative belief is that an atheist or another theist (and even another Christian of a different denomination than yours), is unable to "really" enjoy virtues like heart peace, joy, loving-kindness, hope, long suffering, spiritual gifts, good works etc due to the fact that he is not a "truly born by God" Christian. In o true that each act and attitude of mine it rebuilts and readjusts my character?

In order to buck up this profound nonsense, this time you invented the ...concept of the "heart faith" and the "intellectual faith"!

I did not invent the concept of "intellectual" faith and "heart" faith. It can be found in the book of James:

"You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" (James 2:19-20).

The demons "believe". They believe that God is one. However, their faith is useless. We can conclude from this that a certain type of faith exists which does not affect a person's character. Jesus talked about faith, too. But the faith which Jesus talked about, obviously, is not the faith which demons possess. According to James' characterization, a demon's faith is a mere acknowledgment of God's existence - an "intellectual" or mental assent which bears no fruit.

Jesus uses the word "believe" many times throughout the gospels. Undoubtedly, He does not mean the type of believing which the demons do. Right? He must be talking about a more significant believing, which emanates from the heart of an individual. Biblically, the "heart" is the seat of the will. If the will is not involved, then no transformation of the individual can take place; no fruit will be produced. Therefore, the faith of which Christ speaks can accurately be described as a "heart" faith, as opposed to a mere "intellectual" faith, because the will is involved.

Therefore, when Jesus says that those who "believe" in Him already have eternal life and shall not see judgment, He means it. Precisely because when He uses the term "believe" He is not talking about a mere intellectual acknowledgment, but the complete dedication of the will (i.e., a "heart" faith).
__________

EDIT: Furthermore, whenever I use the term "believe" or "faith" (this is for you Rajk999) I use it exclusively the way Jesus used it, referencing a "heart" faith wherein the will is involved.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well he wrote some foolishness and then asked me if I was stumped. So the only thing that stumped me was his stupidity.

Now ..try to get past my rudeness and see if you can understand what I am saying. Its to your benefit. Those idiots will have you believe that all you need to do is proclaim your faith in Christ and you are saved. It aint so.

So someone presents an argument that you think is very weak, so that makes him "stupid?" Next, you're talking about "those idiots."

And no, I will NOT look past your rudeness. I think that public forums should obey the "Agree to disagree agreeably" principle. I'm sorry that you do not agree.

For the record, I think that you are extremely intelligent, articulate, and have a lot of interesting things to say.