And Equal Time for the Gap Theory

Originally posted by jaywill

When I quoted verses like the following:

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
(Matthew 24:11 KJV)

I was not saying you were a false prophet or teacher, but that you are one of those many that are deceived by them. It is meant as a warning to you like the one Paul gave to Timothy.

Thankyou for the w th's sake I will stop here.

Is it possible that you could be wrong ?

Yes. I am human just like you.

The Darby Bible Trnaslation you quoted should read as follows:

And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

http://bible.cc/genesis/1-2.htm

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

The closest translation to putting "became" instead of "was" that I could find is the following one:

And the earth being without form and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving gently on the face of the waters,
(Genesis 1:2 A Literal Translation of the Bible)

According to Strong's Concordance, the Hebrew word that is tranlated "waste" and "without form" in the above translations also means desert, wilderness, worthless, nothing, nought, empty place. So I see the idea is that the Earth, at this point after its initial creation, is a waste land in total darkness and empty of life.

To me, a pre-Adamic age does not seem to fit into the creation account, since there is not enough time for it in the six days of creation. There is not time for a gap theory to exist between the creation of the heavens and the earth and the rest of creation, if it is all said to have occurred in six days in accoradance with Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:11.

I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”
(Psalm 82:6-7 NKJV)

Even if "sons of the Most High" does refer to God's angels then they still were not ruling and judging men in a pre-Adamic age. Also if these are angels and they can die, then this fact would contradict Luke 20:36 that says that resurrected men will no longer die because they will be like the angels. And Christ seems to think these judges were men when He referred to Psalm 82:6 to defend the accusation that He, being a man, was making Himself out to be equal to God.

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
(John 10:32-36)

Is it possible that you could be wrong ?

Yes. Happy ?

The closest translation to putting "became" instead of "was" that I could find is the following one:

And the earth being without form and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving gently on the face of the waters,
(Genesis 1:2 A Literal Translation of the Bible)

If you consult Joseph B. Rotherham's The Emphasized Bible (Kregel Publications) you'll find the Hebrew translation to English of Gen. 1:1 -

"In the beginning God created the heavenss and the earth. Now the earth had become waste and wild, and darkness was on the face of the roaring deep, - but the Spirit of God was brooding on the face of the waters."

And the footnote says concerning "waste and wild" (accent marks not included )

Heb: tohu wa-vohu. evidently an idiomatic phrasee, with a play on the sound ("assonance" ). The two words occur together only in Is. xxxiv. 11; Jer. iv. 23; examples which favour the conclusion that here also they describe the result of previous overthrow ..."

Barnhouse said that the idiomatic Hebrew phrase tohu wa-bohu is something like the French topsy - turvy.

I think it could also be compared to the expression "helter-skelter".

Must cont. latter.

Originally posted by jaywill

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

I do! I do!

But I have seen no evidence or scripture verse that says demons had physical bodies of their own before possessing the physical bodies of humans.

I see the indications that this may indeed be the case.
It is too upsetting to your idea of Adam being the first intelli en of a curious nature. We may not today be familiar with such a body that they had.

I think Sheol refers to the grave for the body. For even thought the earth swallowed them up alive they did not remain alive because they perished. Hades is the spiritual holding place for the unbelieving souls of the dead IMO.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by jaywill

The closest translation to putting "became" instead of "was" that I could find is the following one:

And the earth being without form and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving gently on the face of the waters,
(Genesis 1:2 A Literal Translation of the Bible)

If you consult Joseph B. R so be compared to the expression [b]"helter-skelter".

Must cont. latter.[/b]

I found another translation that is close. It is NWT of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.

However, I prefer a translation like the following from the NKJV:

The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think Sheol refers to the grave for the body. For even thought the earth swallowed them up alive they did not remain alive because they perished. Hades is the spiritual holding place for the unbelieving souls of the dead IMO.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Glory and honor belong to the Chist of God. He is the truth.

I think Sheol refers to the grave for the body. For even thought the earth swallowed them up alive they did not remain alive because they perished. Hades is the spiritual holding place for the unbelieving souls of the dead IMO.

Yes. You are right that Sheol often seems to just indicate the grave. However, you also have the holding place of souls called Hades, the Greek for Sheol.

"Because you will not abondon my SOUL to Hades, nor will You permit Your Holy One to see corruption." (Acts 2:27)

Do you not have here a passage about the immaterial SOUL remaining in Hades ?

Hades is the Greek of Sheol. And you also have in the Old Testament God looking into Sheol and seeing everyone there.

"Sheol and Abaddon lie open before Jehovah. How much more the hearts of men!" (Proverbs 15:11)

Do you think Scripture is merely saying that dirt graves are open to God's eyes? I don't think that. I think Sheol is also the realm of departed souls who are hidden from our eyes but not from God's.

Originally posted by jaywill
Glory and honor belong to the Chist of God. He is the truth.

I think Sheol refers to the grave for the body. For even thought the earth swallowed them up alive they did not remain alive because they perished. Hades is the spiritual holding place for the unbelieving souls of the dead IMO.

Yes. You are right that Sheol often seems to j ...[text shortened]... heol is also the realm of departed souls who are hidden from our eyes but not from God's.

In Revelation, John calls the grave, Death and adds the Sea as another place that the dead may have their grave. Hades seems only to be a place for the immaterial soul because those in Hades seem to still be alive in some way. I am not sure if that is the case for Sheol or not. But perhaps, you are right. I don't really know.

Originally posted by RJHinds
In Revelation, John calls the grave, Death and adds the Sea as another place that the dead may have their grave. Hades seems only to be a place for the immaterial soul because those in Hades seem to still be alive in some way. I am not sure if that is the case for Sheol or not. But perhaps, you are right. I don't really know.

I think that God had to allow a long time to pass in order to prove that Lucifer was beyond all repentence. This is a being who has the ability to oppose God Himself. This is not a small thing. He was "perfect in wisdom".

Now that means that for a considerable span of time his subtlety could not be detected execpt by the Wise God. Remember, "perfect in wisdom" impliess very much. It implies humility also. But this humility eventually morphed into false humility.

He corrupted his wisdom, says Ezekiel. My opinion is that long ages passed in order for God to allow this plot to ferment, develop. Once for all time God makes an example of this audacious creature.

G.H. Pember writes:

... his weight of glory was more than he could bear: pride lifted up his heart, and he fell from his obedience. Then, doubtless, corruption appeared among his angels, and so descended to those who were in the flesh. How long God bore with this; what warnings and opportunities He gave; whether any availed themselves of His mercy, and are now holy angels who from time to time revisit the place of their ancient habitation - all such questions as these we can only answer by conjecture from analogy of our own race.

... So probably, in remote ages, before the first whisper of rebellion against God, Satan, as the great governing head and viceroy of the Almighty, assisted by glorious beings of his own nature, ruled over the sinless dwellers upon earth. At the same time directed the worship of his subjects, and expounded to them the oracles of the all-wise Creator.

... Satan abused his high office of prophet, priest, and king, and thus involved the whole of his province in sin, and the earthly part of it, at least, in a ruin to which allusion is made in the second verse of Genesis. That, when his return to obediance had been proved an impossibility - perhaps by his conduct towards the new creation, which may have been intended to give him an opportunity of repentance ..." [my emphasis ]

Honing in on the words "when his return to obediance had been proved an impossibility" causes me to consider that perhaps eons of time WERE involved. Lucifer was very high. I can conceive of millions of years for him to fall and demonstrate that repentance was an impossibility.

Originally posted by jaywill
I think that God had to allow a long time to pass in order to prove that Lucifer was beyond all repentence. This is a being who has the ability to oppose God Himself. This is not a small thing. He was [b]"perfect in wisdom".

Now that means that for a considerable span of time his subtlety could not be detected execpt by the Wise God. Remember, "p ...[text shortened]... f millions of years for him to fall and demonstrate that repentance was an impossibility.

It has been over 6.000 years. That is a long time when you consider that God can make the physical heaven and the Earth and all that are in them in 6 days.
Do you want Christ to wait another 6,000 years before He comes in His glory?
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
It has been over 6.000 years. That is a long time when you consider that God can make the physical heaven and the Earth and all that are in them in 6 days.
Do you want Christ to wait another 6,000 years before He comes in His glory?
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

It has been over 6.000 years. That is a long time when you consider that God can make the physical heaven and the Earth and all that are in them in 6 days.

The issue is not how long it may take God to create something.

God waited 400 years from the time of Israel's going down into Egypt for the iniquity of the Amorites to get "bad enough" to merit an invasion of Hebrews as God's judging instrument. See Genesis 15:13.

In the case of Satan and his hordes of, who knows what kind of other glorious beings, they must serve as a universal example of the great cosmic disagreement. They do not fall from where the Amorites were. They fall from a much loftier position.

It would not surprise me if God allowed this rotten fruit much time to ferment and be manifested. I think, God being who He is, allowed opportunities for these opposing revolters to repent, to be reconciled to their Creator.

So this period may have been considerably long to human standards.

Do you want Christ to wait another 6,000 years before He comes in His glory?
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

This has nothing to do with when I want Christ to come in glory.

If you think that YEC's two or more scenarios are easier to accept, they aren't.

1.) In one short week the greatest cosmic rebellion of all eternity hatched in a short number of hours between Day 1 and when Adam was placed in the garden of Eden.

This is like a sped up slap stick motion picture. We must force Satan's encredible history with him and his angels to mature in a few days.

2.) In long time there was only Heaven. Satan was cast out in his rebellion. But who knows where he was cast because only Heaven exists.

That is no easier to believe.

3.) Then there's your proposal. Satan was cast down only after he tempted Eve in the garden of Eden. How long between the two events you never suggested. But this calls for the deception of one third of the angels some time after the expulsion of man from the garden.

You think that's an easier scenario to believe? I don't.

That is a "man is fallen but Satan is just getting started to fall" theory.

Originally posted by jaywill

It has been over 6.000 years. That is a long time when you consider that God can make the physical heaven and the Earth and all that are in them in 6 days.

The issue is not how long it may take God to create something.

God waited 400 years from the time of Israel's going down into Egypt for the iniquity of the Amorites to get "bad t.

That is a "man is fallen but Satan is just getting started to fall" theory.

We know that Adam was 130 years old before Eve had their first son. So some time before this 130 years they sinned against God and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Lucifer (Satan) was the instigator of this sin of Eve and therefore sinned against God as well; but we are not told when Satan was cast out of Heaven to the Earth.

We know that Satan still had access to the Heaven where God dwells at the time of Job, when God asks Satan what he has been doing and Satan says he has been going to and fro over the Earth. So during this time he could be deceiving other angels so that at the time of the war in heaven in which he is cast down to Earth he has amassed a third of the angels to his side, since they are cast down with him. In fact, this war in Heaven may be an event still in the future, because we are told Satan knows he has little time left to complete his plan against mankind. So I don't think that Satan's rebellion was complete in the creation week, since he had not even tempted Eve until some time after that nor had he gathered a third of the angels to his side by then.

HalleluYah !!! Praie the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
We know that Adam was 130 years old before Eve had their first son. So some time before this 130 years they sinned against God and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Lucifer (Satan) was the instigator of this sin of Eve and therefore sinned against God as well; but we are not told when Satan was cast out of Heaven to the Earth.

We know that Satan sti had he gathered a third of the angels to his side by then.

HalleluYah !!! Praie the Lord!

HalleluYah !!! Praie the Lord!

I do! Praise the Lord.

We know that Adam was 130 years old before Eve had their first son.

That is not what I read. I read that Adam was 130 years old when he had Seth who was not his firstborn son.

"And Adam lived one hundred thirty years and begot a son in his likeness according to his image, and he called his name SETH." (Genesis 5:3)

And Genesis 4:25 shows that Seth came after Cain and Abel in birth - And Adam knew his wife again; and she gave birth to a son and called his name Seth; for she said, God has appointed me another seed instead of Abel, because Cain slew him.

So some time before this 130 years they sinned against God and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Lucifer (Satan) was the instigator of this sin of Eve and therefore sinned against God as well; but we are not told when Satan was cast out of Heaven to the Earth.

Before I continue please rethink your explanation in light of the above fact. Adam lived 130 years before the birth of a son Seth, who had to have been the youngest of three mentioned siblings - Cain, Abel, and Seth.

Rethink this correction and explain to me what you think is the case.

Originally posted by RJHinds
We know that Adam was 130 years old before Eve had their first son. So some time before this 130 years they sinned against God and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Lucifer (Satan) was the instigator of this sin of Eve and therefore sinned against God as well; but we are not told when Satan was cast out of Heaven to the Earth.

We know that Satan sti ...[text shortened]... had he gathered a third of the angels to his side by then.

HalleluYah !!! Praie the Lord!

We know that Satan still had access to the Heaven where God dwells at the time of Job, when God asks Satan what he has been doing and Satan says he has been going to and fro over the Earth.

We know more than this RJ. We should know that Satan has acces to Heaven to accuse other brothers up until 1,260 days before the end of the age.

Why do I know this ? How do I know this ?

I know it because when Satan is cast to the earth with his angels in Revelation 12 the earth is WARNED that great WOE is to be expected for the short time Satan has LEFT. Grasp it!

"Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down ..." (Rev. 12:10a) ... "Therefore be glad, O heavens and t hose who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea BECAUSE THE DEVIL HAS COME DOWN TO YOU AND HAS GREAT RAGE, KNOWING THAT HE HAS ONLY A SHORT TIME." (v.12 my emphasis)

I really think that what we need to do is to understand a distinction between two things.

1.) Satan being explelled, cast off the mountain of God, cast away from the nearness and the Edenic garden of God in Ezekiel 28. FIRED, DISMISSED from office, judged in some degree, sent OUT violently from being the anointed cherub that covers.

2.) Satan being cast away from being the accuser before God in Heaven. That is his being now FURTHER limited to ONLY dwell for a remaining SHORT TIME of 1,260 days of the "great tribulation".


Can you possibly go along with these TWO aspects of the total discipline of God towards Satan ?

So during this time he could be deceiving other angels so that at the time of the war in heaven in which he is cast down to Earth he has amassed a third of the angels to his side, since they are cast down with him. In fact, this war in Heaven may be an event still in the future, because we are told Satan knows he has little time left to complete his plan against mankind. So I don't think that Satan's rebellion was complete in the creation week, since he had not even tempted Eve until some time after that nor had he gathered a third of the angels to his side by then.

While I think on this, please think on my explanation. This conquering of Satan is in stages.

When Jesus is crucified He even says that it is at that time the ruler of this world is cast out -

John 12:31 - "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out."

I think we have to understand the total casting down, conquering, casting away and judging of Satan as happening in successive ever more limiting stages.

I think thinking of only ONE incident of casting down is a mistake.

Cont. latter. I am not interested in "winning" a debate. Together, let's explore the biblical data. At the end each of us can make our decision before the Lord what seems more the better interpretive analysis.

Lay it out on the table and I will make my decision. You of course can make yours.

Originally posted by jaywill

HalleluYah !!! Praie the Lord!

I do! Praise the Lord.

We know that Adam was 130 years old before Eve had their first son.

That is not what I read. I read that Adam was 130 years old when he had [b]Seth who was not his firstborn son.

"And Adam lived one hundred thirty years and begot a son in ...[text shortened]... ain, Abel, and Seth.

Rethink this correction and explain to me what you think is the case.

Yes, of course you are right. Seth is the first son of Adam that we have a genealogy and a time frame to count the time from. My only point in presenting that information is to show that it was less than 130 years after Adams birth that they sinned and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. But we are not told exactly when it happened. And the time of the war in Heaven and the casting out of Satan and his angels to the Earth is not stated either. Those statements about that could even be prophetic events that have not yet happened, for all we know.

Originally posted by jaywill

We know that Satan still had access to the Heaven where God dwells at the time of Job, when God asks Satan what he has been doing and Satan says he has been going to and fro over the Earth.

We know more than this RJ. We should know that Satan has acces to Heaven to accuse other brothers up until 1,260 days before the end of the Lay it out on the table and I will make my decision. You of course can make yours.

I think I understand what you are getting at. I think you are saying Lucifer was cast away or fired from his covering cherub job at the throne of God, but still remains in Heaven. So the war in Heaven and the literal casting of Satan and the third of the angels that followed him out of Heaven to the Earth is definitely a prophetic event that has not yet happened. Is that correct?