17 Jun 12
3 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, why must you understand demons and Satan's angels as two different kinds of beings?
Well, why must you understand demons and Satan's angels as two different kinds of beings?
I am giving that some thought while we are discussing.
I don't think this matter is as crucial as some other matters.
I think rightly dividing the word is always important.
Yet I can see that we can be aware of the devices of our enemy without knowing some things. And you are sharing some things which expose some of the activity of the church's enemy.
A gap of time or a difference between angels and demons is definitely not an item of what we might call "the faith" as a basic foundational matter.
"Beloved, while using all diligence to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you and exhort you to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 3)
I don't think what we're arguing about here rises to the level of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. But in one sense, it does help us explore the word of God. If you find something useful to this lay hold of it and don't worry about the rest.
And I will do the same thing.
Praise Christ who is our life. Jesus is the Spirit of life.
Now what might be important is that in our zeal we do not lay hold of science in a way which eventually may discredit our belief. I am concerned for some of the YEC's stumbling of people from the faith because of wrong science ideas.
However, having said that, it is not impossible for Old Earth enthusiast to do the same thing. That is why I wanted to talk about it apart from science matters. You have done very well to restrict the matter to Bible interpretation in this particular thread.
Stubburn as I can be I may still try to win you over. I don't know if that is the Holy Spirit doing that. But I would like to. I don't think I will though. Maybe someday you might agree.
Then I could also learn some things from your understanding too. So while we debate and discuss, I am listening to you and to the Lord also.
Praise Him.
17 Jun 12
11 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsCatching up on some response:
I finished my breakfast and will continue responding to your post.
You said, "And I stil point out that with the exception of the New Living Translation paraphrased which certain shares your opinion of what Matthew 25:41 should be understood to mean, Greek text has daimonia there in that passage."
You said in an earlier post that "daimonia" means " prevent this post getting too long, I will continue this on my next post.[/b]
Show me your logic problem that proves demons are not Satan's angels if you have such a strong argument.
I think I already did. You found my evidences unconvicing.
I may have more but I'm not hopeful you'll want to leave a concept which you hold and apparently has served you adaquately.
Also do you have a link to a website that explains your exact belief?
Maybe after awhile. Links are always so so.
If you find an online version of G.H. Pember's book "Earth's Earliest Ages" (and there is one out there. I saw it), you may start reading from the Chapter The Interval and read up to about page 60.
The same is true of The Mystery of Creation by Watchman Nee.
Under another title The Collected Works of Watchman Nee you might find it at www.ministrybooks.org. His works had more than one publisher. And one versions was called "The Mystery of Creation" . I know it as "The Collected Works of Watchman Nee" from Living Stream Ministry. (LSM)
That same information is developed in The Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee on the same website.
The same treatment of the subject could be read in Dr. Donald Barnhouse's book "The Invisible War" That I have not yet seen on the Internet.
And
Remember, these demons are worried that Christ is going to send them into the "abyss" which refers to the "bottomless pit" known as "Hell".
That is true. One gospel says they did not want to be tormented. Another gospel says they did not want to be sent to the abyss. You are correct.
And I tried to show you that there is some mysterious connection between the abyss and the sea by comparing what Revelation says about the beast, the Antichrist.
I did not develop this at length but there is some connection in the Bible between the ABYSS and the SEA. Perhaps the entrance to the ABYSS is deep in the sea or ocean. But there is some connection if we take the Word of God as our revelation of truth.
They ask Christ if He has come to torment them before their time. This implies that they know that they have a place reserved for them in which they will be tormented just like is stated for Satan and his angels.
I think that what this indicates is that as with the angels so it is with the demons. And what is that ?
Some fallen angels are freer to roam around and assist their leader Satan.
Some OTHER angels committed some more heineous offenses and are confined.
Some demons are relatively freer to roam around and cause invasions.
Some OTHER demons have commited more serious infractions, are too dangerous, and are confined to the abyss already.
So some demons do not want to be tormented before the time. The inevitable last of all times is the great white throne judgment. Some subjects of Satan from demons, from fallen angels, and from human sinners, are already under confinement and are suffering.
So I think the passage you allude to reveals degrees of severity, degrees of consequences among the rebels against God.
Some angels who followed Satan are already in eternal chains. They are being kept like in "solitary confinement" of sorts, away from other beings, until the last judgment:
"And the angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6)
"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being kept for judgment; ..." ( 2 Peter 2:4)
More dangerous offenders are kept away from the others in human prisons.
Something similar occurs in God's dealing with angels and demons.
Some demons are released from the abyss in Revelation 9. They are more terrible. Other demons presently roam out of waterlesss places and seek to make home in bodies, preferably human ones.
Thier craving suggests to me some past life of lust.
Fallen angels I see as higher up in the Satanic hierarchy. Some of them are in charge of whole nations as we see in Daniel. They may be over human cities and towns too.
But there is something about demon invasion which suggests that they not only lost bodies but were very indulgent when they had them. The matter is mysterious to me. And it is not without problems. We are not told more by God for some reason. God's silence on things is sometimes significant also.
But without me refering to Scripture, use your good memory. The magicians of Pharoah were able to imitate God's miracle of turning a wooden stick into a serpent. That is astounding.
Elijah a prophet of God called fire down from heaven. Yet when God turned Job over to some limited bothering of Satan, fire came down from heaven presumably by Satan's power.
Fire falls from heaven at the performing of signs by the false prophet of antichrist also. The point here is that we do not know the extent of this evil power of Satan.
Based on this, I may give you my opinion. I could be wrong. I could be very wrong. But I would not be surprised that some of this great Satanic power was exercised in the ancient past to maybe have something to do with the beings that existed.
I really do not know and cannot rigorously defend this opinion. But maybe we simply underestimate the degree in which Lucifer was an authority in the pre-Adamic age.
Since you don't believe in a pre-adamic age that probably is no problem for you. But Satan's ability, one way or another, can at times be frightfully similar to what his Maker does. We know who is the more powerful. We know that we would have no hope were it not for the Godman Jesus Christ on our side.
Or rather we on His side.
However, that verse does not say the eternal fire of torment is for Satan and his angels and demons. Could that be because Satan's angels are also the demons, just like Satan is a demon, being the ruler of the demons?
One might reason that way. I think I don't. I don't think there is great loss to reason it that way.
What concerns me is your making statements that are not made in the Bible. You have to show me where it says that Satan is a demon.
But then if I say "Satan is never called a demon" then you may take that as "Satan is not a serious problem". But by saying Satan is not called a demon I am not saying that he is not terrible in his evil as a demon.
You say in essence, "demons go into man and Satan went into Judas." I hear you.
But I see a vast hierarchical system. Maybe in the evil system verything the underlings can do the ruler can do. Eisenhower was a general. But he also was a soldier himself. The leader is capable of doing the same damage as all the underlings. (only the organization is the point, not Eisenhower's character)
I don't that really makes the higher ups the same as the lowers. Fallen angels are involved in directing men's worship to idols. So also are demons involved in idolatry. But I regard them as different from my study of the Bible.
For length I stop here.
17 Jun 12
1 edit
Correction:
Under another title The Collected Works of Watchman Nee you might find it at www.ministrybooks.org. His works had more than one publisher. And one versions was called "The Mystery of Creation" I know it as "The Collected Works of Watchman Nee" from Living Stream Ministry. (LSM)
17 Jun 12
RJ, Praise the Lord this morning.
In this passage -
"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel nor spirit; but the Pharisees confess both." (Acts 23:8)
I take that the Pharisees believed that besides angels there were spirits.
I don't take this as the Pharisees believing that angels could do "both" this kind of thing and another kind of thing.
Neither do I understand this as the Pharisees believing angels had "both" this characteristic and another characteristic.
I understand it as them believing that two classes of spiritual beings existed.
Now a more legitimate objection, I think, would be to ask WHY would the Pharisees want to endorse a man who was spoken to by a demon ?
Ie. " ... and some of the scribes of the Pharisees' party rose up and contended, saying, We find nothing evil in this man. And what if a spirit has spoken to him, or an angel?" (v.9)
I think I would answer that historically the demons are deceivers. And you cannot trust the things that they tell man. The Pharisees probably were to some degree fooled, like the Greeks were. And they didn't realize that these speaking spirits, these familiar spirits were all of the Devil.
My assumption is that the Pharisees were not completely clear about the spiritual situation. They had been deceived that some spirits might be speaking godly things.
Of course people like modern day Bishop Pike or Edgar Cace are similarly deceived.
17 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI am responding to the following parts of this post:
Catching up on some response:
Show me your logic problem that proves demons are not Satan's angels if you have such a strong argument.
I think I already did. You found my evidences unconvicing.
I may have more but I'm not hopeful you'll want to leave a concept which you hold and apparently has served you adaquately.
[quote]
A my study of the Bible.
For length I stop here.
PART I
What concerns me is your making statements that are not made in the Bible. You have to show me where it says that Satan is a demon.
But then if I say "Satan is never called a demon" then you may take that as "Satan is not a serious problem". But by saying Satan is not called a demon I am not saying that he is not terrible in his evil as a demon.
I believe you posted something earlier about "devil" being always singular in the Greek and "demons" always being plural in the Greek language. Perhaps then "demons" is the plural form of "devil" and if so, we are told Satan is "the devil" meaning the chief of "demons" in the Holy Bible. If you will search it out, I believe you will find this is the belief of main-stream Christians.
PART II
You say in essence, "demons go into man and Satan went into Judas." I hear you.
But I see a vast hierarchical system. Maybe in the evil system verything the underlings can do the ruler can do. Eisenhower was a general. But he also was a soldier himself. The leader is capable of doing the same damage as all the underlings. (only the organization is the point, not Eisenhower's character)
You make a good point with President Eisenhower as commander in Chief of all U.S. armed forces was also a general over the U.S. Army and a soilder himself in a hierarchial system. So just as there are different divisions in the Armed Forces, like Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and subdivisions in this vast hierarchical system the same is true of God and His army of Angels, as well as for Satan and his demonic angels. Let us not loose sight of the fact that we are using "angel" here to mean more than just a "messenger" but also as spirit beings with special abilities for whatever function that may be required of them, like the special forces or a signal battalion in the U.S. Army, which ultimately comes under the control of the President.
Can we agree that Satan has ultimate control over his army of angels, which includes the division called demons?
17 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]I am responding to the following parts of this post:
PART I
What concerns me is your making statements that are not made in the Bible. You have to show me where it says that Satan is a demon.
But then if I say "Satan is never called a demon" then you may take that as "Satan is not a serious problem". But by saying Satan is not called a demon I a l over his army of angels, which includes the division called demons?[/b][/b]
I believe you posted something earlier about "devil" being always singular in the Greek and "demons" always being plural in the Greek language.
I cannot engage now. I am running out the door.
But above I did write that the word for Devil is not seen in the plural.
I didn't say that the word for demon is only plural.
That impression you got is not right.
Demon is both found in the singular and the plural in the Bible.
The rest will have to wait for latter.
17 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]I am responding to the following parts of this post:
PART I
What concerns me is your making statements that are not made in the Bible. You have to show me where it says that Satan is a demon.
But then if I say "Satan is never called a demon" then you may take that as "Satan is not a serious problem". But by saying Satan is not called a demon I a l over his army of angels, which includes the division called demons?[/b][/b]
Can we agree that Satan has ultimate control over his army of angels, which includes the division called demons?
We agree that demons and fallen angels are under Satan's control.
Did I ever suggest otherwise ??
If you want to use "messengers" to mean angels of different types including demons, then I will say some messengers were from heaven and some were beings on the earth in preadamic times.
The former I refer to as angels. The latter I refer to as demons.
So that you understand me.
I understand you.
17 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillSo you are saying that there is a plural for "devil" in the Greek?I believe you posted something earlier about "devil" being always singular in the Greek and "demons" always being plural in the Greek language.
I cannot engage now. I am running out the door.
But above I did write that the word for Devil is not seen in the plural.
I didn't say that the word for demon is only plural.
That impress ...[text shortened]... und in the singular and the plural in the Bible.
The rest will have to wait for latter.
17 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsThe prevailing sweetness of Christ be with your spirit, brother.
So you are saying that there is a plural for "devil" in the Greek?
So you are saying that there is a plural for "devil" in the Greek?
No. I am saying what I said. The Greek word translated to English "Devil" only appears in the singular in the NT.
So your KJV occurence of "devils" is misleading at best.
17 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillWhen I use "angel" I do not include human messengers or any other physical messengers, like homing pigeons or whatever. I am only including those spirit beings created by God before the creation of a physical universe. I am including all spirit beings created by God regardless if they were ever used a a messenger or not. So it is within this context that I ask the Question:Can we agree that Satan has ultimate control over his army of angels, which includes the division called demons?
We agree that demons and fallen angels are under Satan's control.
Did I ever suggest otherwise ??
If you want to use "messengers" to mean angels of different types including demons, then I will say some messengers we ...[text shortened]... s angels. The latter I refer to as demons.
So that you understand me.
I understand you.
Can we agree that Satan has ultimate control over his army of angels, which includes the division called demons?
17 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillSo you do not know if there is a plural for "devil" in the Greek or what it might be, right?
The prevailing sweetness of Christ be with your spirit, brother.
So you are saying that there is a plural for "devil" in the Greek?
No. I am saying what I said. The Greek word translated to English "Devil" only appears in the singular in the NT.
So your KJV occurence of [b]"devils" is misleading at best.[/b]
17 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
When I use "angel" I do not include human messengers or any other physical messengers, like homing pigeons or whatever. I am only including those spirit beings created by God before the creation of a physical universe. I am including all spirit beings created by God regardless if they were ever used a a messenger or not. So it is within this context that ...[text shortened]... has ultimate control over his army of angels, which includes the division called demons? [/b]
When I use "angel" I do not include human messengers or any other physical messengers, like homing pigeons or whatever. I am only including those spirit beings created by God before the creation of a physical universe. I am including all spirit beings created by God regardless if they were every used a a messenger or not. So it is within this context that I ask the Question:
Can we agree that Satan has ultimate control over his army of angels, which includes the division called demons?
It is really a two part question in my mind:
1.) Yes. Definitely Satan has ultimate control over his army of angels.
2.) Satan has ultimate control over all the demons too, who are part of his army.
I still have a little bit of a question mark about the beings who are now demons. Sorry.
Did God create these beings ?
I told you about the Satanic miracles.
I told you the Egyptian magicians ALSO turned the wood into a snake as Moses and Aaron did.
Why was the Bible not embarressed to inform of us of such powers that the opponents of God had ? Its mention must have a point effecting our wisdom for salvation.
Elijah calls fire from heaven.
But then again so does the false prophet and Satan to attack Job.
We see in these instances severe IMITATION of God. Why ? How far does it extend ?
Satan showed Christ all the kingdoms of the world in a moment.
How could he do that?
How powerful is this Devil?
Could he create?
Could he be given some authority even to make creatures of his design ?
Why is astrology and future prediction forbidden in the Old Testament ?
There must be something to it perhaps?
Perhaps there is SOMETHING there in the Satanic arsenal terribly deceiving.
Maybe we don't want to know.
Apparently, God tells us what we need to know and reserves a lot that He knows we don't need to know.
I do not know the answers to many of these questions.
But to your question - Satan is over ALL of his army of beings.
Now that's the best answer I have for your question AS you phrase it.
17 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillI submit to you that a devil is the same as a demon and demons are devils.
[quote] When I use "angel" I do not include human messengers or any other physical messengers, like homing pigeons or whatever. I am only including those spirit beings created by God before the creation of a physical universe. I am including all spirit beings created by God regardless if they were every used a a messenger or not. So it is within this context ...[text shortened]... army of beings.
Now that's the best answer I have for your question AS you phrase it.
It is the same Greek word that is translated "devil" or "demon" depending on the translator. So Satan the devil is demonic.