And Equal Time for the Gap Theory

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think I understand what you are getting at. I think you are saying Lucifer was cast away or fired from his covering cherub job at the throne of God, but still remains in Heaven. So the war in Heaven and the literal casting of Satan and the third of the angels that followed him out of Heaven to the Earth is definitely a prophetic event that has not yet happened. Is that correct?

I think I understand what you are getting at. I think you are saying Lucifer was cast away or fired from his covering cherub job at the throne of God, but still remains in Heaven. So the war in Heaven and the literal casting of Satan and the third of the angels that followed him out of Heaven to the Earth is definitely a prophetic event that has not yet happened. Is that correct?

Right.

I mean after his expulsion from his high office, and ever after, he still retained some freedom to show up at the old job sight and complain - basically.

His appearing before God to slander man has continued since man's creation
His trafficing in this way, back and forth (if you will) has been his continuous activity throughout the ages.

He slandered God to the angels.
He slandered God to man.
He also slanders man to God.
He slanders both ways.

He tempts man to sin. Once man sins he both accuses man's conscience FOR sinning and slanders man to God. "Look at what your creation man just did."

When man turns to God to be a follower of Christ, Satan's slanders really begin to pick up. "You think that YOU can be a Christian ? Look at what kind of person you are."

This is when the blood of Christ becomes the weapon by which the disciples overcome the accusation of Satan.

I don't think Satan's slander of God to Eve was by any means his first.
As he got Eve to doubt God's word and God's heart, he had previously done the same with the angels.

He deceived them to doubt the word of God and the heart of God. The trading of Ezekiel 28:16 may also be a word derived from a root which means SLANDER.

"By the abundance of your trading [slander?] they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. SO ... I cast you out as profane from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. " (Ezek. 28:16)

If you recall the rebellion of Absalom in 2 Samuel 15:1 - 19:8 we may have here a recap of Satan's fall. Like Satan Absalom was beautiful and knew it. Like Satan, Absalom stole the hearts of men by feeding their ambition and self pity.

Like Absalom perhaps Lucifer went around saying to angels -

"You know God doesn't really appreciate you. You see, you are made for better things. But because of God you are withheld from these better things. Now if I was the Most High I would see to it that you filled out your real potential. I would elevate you to the right position you should occupy."

Maybe in this way Lucifer traded around his merchandise of SLANDER. And little by little more and more angels of God were enfluenced by this plot. Then an all out rebellion broke out after he had stolen the hearts of one third of the angels of God.

I think that this all happened BEFORE he tempted Adam and Eve with basically the same program -

In essence " God is a tyrant. God is a despot. God is keeping you under his tyranical thumb. You were made for higher things. You were made for better things. God is withholding from you the best blessing. He doesn't want competition. You will not surely DIE. That is a lie. I come to set you free from this tyrant God. Just listen to me."

I think we have with Eve and Adam a REPLAY of the old slanders already used by the Devil.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] I think I understand what you are getting at. I think you are saying Lucifer was cast away or fired from his covering cherub job at the throne of God, but still remains in Heaven. So the war in Heaven and the literal casting of Satan and the third of the angels that followed him out of Heaven to the Earth is definitely a prophetic event that has not ve with Eve and Adam a REPLAY of the old slanders already used by the Devil.

I can agree with most of that, but I still think Lucifer was a good boy until God began the creation of the physical universe. It was then that he became jealous of God's relationship with mankind. He had been proud of his position with God over all the other angels up to this point; but now, God was paying more attention to his physical creations, and mankind in particular. This is when iniquity was found in him and he set out to disrupt God's relationship with mankind by convincing Eve to disobey God. But God continued to pay more attention to mankind and this caused Lucifer to up the ante by his constant accusations about the unworthiness of mankind resulting in his name change to Satan.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God!

Originally posted by RJHinds
I can agree with most of that, but I still think Lucifer was a good boy until God began the creation of the physical universe. It was then that he became jealous of God's relationship with mankind. He had been proud of his position with God over all the other angels up to this point; but now, God was paying more attention to his physical creations, and man nkind resulting in his name change to Satan.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God!

Praise Christ - the God of our salvation, Who saves us by flowing in as life and not by outward regulation.

I can agree with most of that, but I still think Lucifer was a good boy until God began the creation of the physical universe.

He, no doubt was good and even "perfect in wisdom". He was so from the very moment he awoke into existence. Can you imagine that ?

"You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created ..." (v.15)

. And he awoke to celebration and music, royal accompanyment of the most unimaginable kind.

"The workmanship of your tambourines and your pipes was prepared with you on the day you were created." (v.13)

This was like the pomp, majesty, and music that accompanied ancient royal processions. But how long he was a "good boy" we don't know. I agree with your idea of his being a great hero - even the greatest below the uncreated eternal God Himself.

It was then that he became jealous of God's relationship with mankind. He had been proud of his position with God over all the other angels up to this point; but now, God was paying more attention to his physical creations, and mankind in particular. This is when iniquity was found in him and he set out to disrupt God's relationship with mankind by convincing Eve to disobey God. But God continued to pay more attention to mankind and this caused Lucifer to up the ante by his constant accusations about the unworthiness of mankind resulting in his name change to Satan.

I fully agree that Satan has uped the ante again and again. This is definitely true.

Now one brother once told me that Satan's way is to rush ahead of God and do things he knows God wants to do beforehand. It could be that being "perfect in wisdom" and sealing up "the sum of perfection" (v.12) that he knew what God intended to do with man. And then perhaps he rushed in beforehand in a preemptive imitation with something of his own arrangement.

Maybe of the ancient past we see the leftovers of Lucifer's economy - wierd looking monstrosities, even some pre-adamic intelligent designs of his own, who are now demons. I speculate.

However, I think this jealousy is a uncontraverted fact. The final outcome of God's salvation, the New Jerusalem has some symbolism which is very reminicient of Lucifer's dwelling.

Compare and I will expound more latter:

Lucifer - "You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, diamond, chysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and emrald, with gold." (Ezek. 28:13)

New Jerusalem - "The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone: the first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelth, amethyst." (Rev. 21:19,20)

Now here is an important point. We can see that the consummation of God's will and operation produces something which seems to replace the glorious dwelling of Lucifer. But the SIGN (Rev. 1:1) of the New Jerusalem points to transformed and glorified people as precious stones.

The 12 manner of precious stones adorning the wall of New Jerusalem signifies the saints of God, human of course, transformed into precious stones by the indwelling Holy Spirit of the Triune God.

I would like to develop this matter of the living stones of the believers being the precious stones of New Jerusalem in another post.

Suffice it here to say that the fired Lucifer is shamed to the uttermost. That is because those puny hated humans made of the dust of the earth, end up as forgiven, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, conformed, resurrected, glorified, and built up together, new God filled human beings.

They appear as Lucifers original dwelling. He has been replaced. The question might be - How much did Lucifer know that this is where God was heading ? This ultimate purpose for the new creature man could have been the object fueling the envy, the jealousy of the anointed cherub.

Anyway, it is not a light point that the New Jerusalem is a corporate, collective and aggregate mass production of sons of God conformed to the image of Christ -

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Romans 8:30)

Hallelujah. Praise the Lord Jesus for Himself and the New Jerusalem - our eternal destiny.

Originally posted by jaywill
Praise Christ - the God of our salvation, Who saves us by flowing in as life and not by outward regulation.

I can agree with most of that, but I still think Lucifer was a good boy until God began the creation of the physical universe.

He, no doubt was good and even [b]"perfect in wisdom". He was so from the very moment he awok ...[text shortened]... he Lord Jesus for Himself and the New Jerusalem - our eternal destiny.[/b]

Okay, but I still do not see any need for a Gap Theory and a Pre-Adamic World to explain anything. It seems we have a good enough explanation within this world to explain the need for the Savior of mankind.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Okay, but I still do not see any need for a Gap Theory and a Pre-Adamic World to explain anything. It seems we have a good enough explanation within this world to explain the need for the Savior of mankind.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Okay, but I still do not see any need for a Gap Theory and a Pre-Adamic World to explain anything. It seems we have a good enough explanation within this world to explain the need for the Savior of mankind.

It may indeed be as you say. That is concerning the Savior.

However, God did not create man just for the purpose of saving man from sin. Before sin entered God had a eternal purpose for man's creation.

Redemption and salvation is remedial, to bring man BACK to a state that God may get on with His original purpose.

His saving is quite "us" centered - meeting our need to be rescued from condemnation. But what is the plan of God's life ?

We agree that there was this terrible jealousy within the anointed cherub because of humanity. You even say that Satan noticed that God was paying more attention to humans and the physical universe than to Lucifer.

If that is the case, why do you suppose this great attention was being given by God towards man ? Was it just so God could hurry up and save man - be man's Savior ?

You see the main difference between the angelic "sons of God" and the human sons of God is that the latter are united with God in life. God's intention was to indwell them. God's eternal purpose was to be organically united with this creature in a union of incorporation.

In a real sense, they become God in life and in nature but not in His Fatherhood as Godhead. God created man to dispense Himself into man. And this is the significance of putting man before "the tree of life".

But from the very beginning, from the very start of the creation of man, God placed human beings inbetween these TWO sources to make a choice -

1.) Joining God in divine life union (the tree of life)
2.) Joining Satan in a dynamic withdrawal into death - rebellion and sin (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil)

Now you do argue that Lucifer was created first and only went against God AFTER the creation of the physical universe. Please give me your opinion then.

When the Bible says "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created ..." (v.15)

Do you believe that we have here a "day" that Lucifer was created before there were any physical days in the universe ?

Your interpretation calls for Lucifer being created BEFORE time and space exists. Doesn't it ?

Please notice that there is passing one half hour of time in HEAVEN in the book of Revelation -

"And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." (Rev. 8:1)

One HALF HOUR ? One HALF HOUR in Heaven ? Time is being counted there in Heaven. So then why cannot we have physical time on "the day" that Lucifer was created - and accordingly a physical universe of time and space ?

Someone might point out that the angels existed before the founding of the earth. IE. Job 38:6-11:

"Onto what were its bases sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

And who hedged in the sea with doors When it burst forth, issueing from the womb, When I made clouds its clothing and deep darkness its swaddling clothes, And I broke out My boundaries for it and set up bars and doors, And I said, To here you shall come and no farther, And here shall your proud waves be stopped ?"

The angels are seen here as God prepares the earth, laying the foundation, limiting the roaring seas, preparing clouds as a covering in darkness. This verse does not seem to deal with the creation of the whole universe.

So Job 38 shows angels existence at the formation of the earth. But angels could be in existence from the creation of the universe with its time and space.

Why should I not believe that God was marking TIME on the DAY that Lucifer was created implying a physical creation in existence ?

Originally posted by jaywill

Okay, but I still do not see any need for a Gap Theory and a Pre-Adamic World to explain anything. It seems we have a good enough explanation within this world to explain the need for the Savior of mankind.

It may indeed be as you say. That is concerning the Savior.

However, God did not create man just for the purpose of saving man hat Lucifer was [b]created implying a physical creation in existence ?[/b]

I think God made man to have a loving relationship, like a husband and wife.
Genesis 1:1 is about "the Beginning" of the physical world, not the spiritual world. God did not need the Sun, the moon, the stars, and the rotation of the Earth to tell time as we do.

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
(Genesis 1:14-19 NASB)

God had already counted out three days before this happened.

Yes, I believe there was time before this. However, time as we know it began with the creation of the physical universe. Obviously there needed to be time for God to create all the spiritual beings before this, but we will learn all about that after we get to Heaven. I don't think that the details of the spiritual world is something God wants us to concentrate on at this time. We have enough problems to overcome in this world, while fighting against the deceptions and temptations of those evil angels from the spiritual world.

Your interpretation calls for Lucifer being created BEFORE time and space exists. Doesn't it ?

Yes and No. Lucifer was created before the time began for the the physical heavens and the earth, not before eternity.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think God made man to have a loving relationship, like a husband and wife.
Genesis 1:1 is about "the Beginning" of the physical world, not the spiritual world. God did not need the Sun, the moon, the stars, and the rotation of the Earth to tell time as we do.

[b]Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day fro ed BEFORE time and space exists. Doesn't it ?

No.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord![/b]

Yes, I believe there was time before this. However, time as we know it began with the creation of the physical universe. Obviously there needed to be time for God to create all the spiritual beings before this, but we will learn all about that after we get to Heaven. I don't think that the details of the spiritual world is something God wants us to concentrate on at this time. We have enough problems to overcome in this world, while fighting against the deceptions and temptations of those evil angels from the spiritual world.

Okay. The "day" that Lucifer was created doesn't have to exist in a sphere with physical creation, you say. Maybe so.

It sounds as if you actually envision the cosmos being with nothing and God placing the stars out there on Day #4.

I, on the other hand, have to remember that this Genesis chapter is one of several passages on God's creating. I have to consider them all together.

And Zechariah 12 has God first stretching forth the heavens, and then laying the foundation of the earth. This implies to me that the stretching forth of the heavens is stretching forth something that was there, rather than nothingness. Ie - God stretched out the heavens with its multitude of stars rather than nothingness -

"The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." (Zechariah 12:1)

1.) God stretches forth the heavens first.
2.) God lays the foundation of the earth second.
3.) God forms the spirit of man within man third.

Ie - The heavens are for the earth.
The earth is for man.
Man has a spirit within him to commune and contact God.


Now. strict Young Earth Creationist, brother in Christ, this passage is important too. This is ALSO the word of our God. This passage Zechariah 12:1 is ALSO the word of God. Right ?

I don't think it is impeccably more "orthodox" that I believe that God stretched forth NOTHING, then made the earth, then put the stars out onto the NOTHING that He had stetched forth only on the fourth day.

And it should be apparent that what we are told in Genesis chapter 1 cannot be an exhaustive explanation of how God did this creating. That is because in chapter 2 we are told something rather contradictory.

God created the animals FIRST and then MAN as in chapter one ?
Or God created MAN FIRST and THEN created the animals ?

It is rather difficult to reconcile. I don't believe Moses just sloppily overlooked these problems. Rather I believe God PURPOSELY leaves the matter a bit obscure. You know, we humans are experts at missing the point.

The animals first and then man?
Or man first and then the animals ?
So then we try to hammer out some reconciliation.

But, one thing is certainly CONSISTENT in both chapters.
One thing is crystal clear in both chapters.

At the top of the pyramid of living things is Adam.
Time wise who came first is not the main point.
Purpose wise BOTH Genesis 1 and 2 reveal MAN at the top of the ladder of creatures.

He is assigned dominion over them in chapter one.
He is tasked to name them all in chapter two.
That means he effectively defined them - their nature and characteristics.

This is the common theme in both chapters - the animals are below man.
He is one of the creatures and has a kinship with all other living things.
But he is Head over them all.
In the pyramid of creatures, Adam is at the pinnacle.

In chapters one and two there is -
1.) something rather obscure
2.) something rather definite.

To me this is God saying for us not to miss the point.
That is not to miss the point trying to know all the technicalities of things simply withheld from the revelation.

Originally posted by RJHinds

[/b] I think God made man to have a loving relationship, like a husband and wife.

[/b]
That is definitely an aspect of God's desire - a corporte wife for His Son.
This is the loved motive of having man.

Now, do you think that the word "dominion" when God appoints man to have dominion suggests any enemies of God ?

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion ..." (Gen 1:26)

Do you also think that in chapter two Adam's mandate to guard, or "keep" the garden, implies the existence or possibility of God having enemies ?

"And Jehovah God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and to keep it." (Gen. 2:15)

My answer would be Yes and Yes.

My evidence for Yes over No is the very existence and presence of an enemy of God in that garden which Adam was to "keep" and over whose creatures he was to have "dominion".

"Now the serpent was more crafty than every other animal of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said to the woman, Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden ?" (3:1)

I submit that it was not only for a loving divine romance of marriage that God created man. It was not only to have God's image. But it was also to have God's dominion as a deputy authority. And that dominion was to be over all the earth PLUS over all the creeping things.

BUT ... "Now the serpent was more crafty than evey other animal of the field which Jehovah God had made."


You are saying Satan uped the ante. And I fully agree with you about that.
But he was already Satan at this juncture - full of craftiness, lying, and slander. Adam was CREATED to have dominion over ALL the other creatures. Adam was CREATED to keep the garden of God.

Don't you see in the mandate of Adam's very creation, also an order to have authority over Satan ?

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] Yes, I believe there was time before this. However, time as we know it began with the creation of the physical universe. Obviously there needed to be time for God to create all the spiritual beings before this, but we will learn all about that after we get to Heaven. I don't think that the details of the spiritual world is something God wants us to c ...[text shortened]... trying to know all the technicalities of things simply withheld from the revelation.

Don't forget Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." So God created the heavens before He stretched them out. God did not stretch out nothing. Think man, think! Get your head out! Don't try to confuse yourself with supposedly conflicting information. Look at it from the point of view that it is all true. The physical heavens are not nothing even though it appears that way.

What Is The Sky Made Of?
The sky is the part of the atmosphere or of outer space visible from the surface of the earth. The sky is sometimes defined as the denser gaseous zone of a planet's atmosphere, it is therefore made up of all the gases in the atmosphere, oxygen and nitrogen in larger percentages. In the field of astronomy, the sky is referred to as a celestial sphere, as an imaginary dome where the sun, stars, planets, and the moon are seen to be travelling.

http://uk.ask.com/question/what-is-the-sky-made-of

Genesis 1 gives the order of creation and the animals were created before man. Genesis 2 is adding some more information concerning man. It is not saying the animals were created after man. It is simply stating that the animals that were created by God were brought to man to name. It is not concerned with the order of creation here, because that had already been given.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God!

Originally posted by jaywill

I think God made man to have a loving relationship, like a husband and wife.

[/b]
That is definitely an aspect of God's desire - a corporte wife for His Son.
This is the loved motive of having man.

Now, do you think that the word "dominion" when God appoints man to have dominion suggests any enemies of God ? ...[text shortened]... dam's very creation, also an order to have authority over Satan ?[/b]

I only see this as providing man with a sense of responsiblity and worth.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Don't forget Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning, God [b]created the heavens and the earth." So God created the heavens before He stretched them out. God did not stretch out nothing. Think man, think! Get your head out! Don't try to confuse yourself with supposedly conflicting information. Look at it from the point of view that it is all true. Th , because that had already been given.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God![/b]

This is jaywill typing from a relative's PC.

Genesis 1 gives the order of creation and the animals were created before man. Genesis 2 is adding some more information concerning man. It is not saying the animals were created after man. It is simply stating that the animals that were created by God were brought to man to name. It is not concerned with the order of creation here, because that had already been given.

I am quite familiar with that rational answer. I like it. But it is only a proposed solution to the paradox.

We have to remember that it is the word of God that is infallible. Our interpretations, our proposed rationals to deal with problems and paradoxes and even apparent contradictions, are not infallible.

I like your answer. I have used it myself. "When Jehovah God made earth and heaven, And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up ...Jehovah God formed man with the dust of the ground ... " (3:4b-5a,7a)

This is a paradox. I trust God on both chapters. Notice we are told liturally in 2:4 - "In the day God made earth and heaven ..." . But the immediately previous chapter just told us that it was in six days that God made the creation, at face value.

We have ways of reconciling paradoxes. But these interpretations are not infallible. They are usually just proposed solutions.

Originally posted by GSWILL
This is jaywill typing from a relative's PC.

[quote] Genesis 1 gives the order of creation and the animals were created before man. Genesis 2 is adding some more information concerning man. It is not saying the animals were created after man. It is simply stating that the animals that were created by God were brought to man to name. It is not concerned wi s. But these interpretations are not infallible. They are usually just proposed solutions.

I hope you do not get angry with me by the way I present my opinions as being infallible and anyone that disagrees has his head up is arse. I am not God and my interpretations could be incorrect. However, there are some cases that seem too clear to me to have any other interpretation than what I present. I do remain open to being convinced that I am wrong. But I believe that is going to be a difficult process. If you feel up to the task, go ahead.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

P.S. You do understand that God had already made matured plants and trees over various parts of the earth before man was created. It was only in this certain area where God placed man that God had planted this garden so Adam would have the responisbility to work it. Anyway, that is my understanding. One learns best by doing.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I hope you do not get angry with me by the way I present my opinions as being infallible and anyone that disagrees has his head up is arse. I am not God and my interpretations could be incorrect. However, there are some cases that seem too clear to me to have any other interpretation than what I present. I do remain open to being convinced that I am wron ...[text shortened]... be a difficult process. If you feel up to the task, go ahead.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

I understand. You don't have to give up YEC.

You can see that I'm kind of commited to an understanding too.
I feel similar. I am not beyond being persuaded by more sound exegesis.

But 38 some years ago and said "I think this is the better way to understand this." I could be wrong. "We know in part, and prophesy in part."

Originally posted by RJHinds
I hope you do not get angry with me by the way I present my opinions as being infallible and anyone that disagrees has his head up is arse. I am not God and my interpretations could be incorrect. However, there are some cases that seem too clear to me to have any other interpretation than what I present. I do remain open to being convinced that I am wron ...[text shortened]... ave the responisbility to work it. Anyway, that is my understanding. One learns best by doing.

What would be nice would be to send you back about 100 million years when there were dinosaurs on the Earth but no humans in sight and ask you what you thought about that.

Then take you forward in time to about 500,000 years ago when there were semi humans around, then 400K, 300K, 200 K, 100K, 50K. etc., and see what you thought about that when you see proto-humans getting closer to modern.

Originally posted by jaywill
I understand. You don't have to give up YEC.

You can see that I'm kind of commited to an understanding too.
I feel similar. I am not beyond being persuaded by more sound exegesis.

But 38 some years ago and said "I think this is the better way to understand this." I could be wrong. [b]"We know in part, and prophesy in part."[/b]

As I was pointing out in my post script, there had to be matured trees and plants to produce fruit already, otherwise, Adam an Eve would have starved to death waiting for the planted seed to grow and bear fruit. Do you understand that point?

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!