18 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillI was going to use "Praise the Great Sleuth Sherlock Holmes and His Sidekick, Dr. Watson". It would sound a bit more intellectual if only that #&$$((#*ing Robert Downey Jr. hadn't turned him into an action figure.
Typical arrested development.
Happiness is reading Marvel Comics forever.
18 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadYes, you are partially right, for when I was very young and could not read, my grandmother would read one of Grimm's Fairy Tales to entertain me. After I learned to read better, I read comic books for myself because they had many pictures that help tell the stories. I also was told stories from the Holy Bible while in Sunday school at church. Those stories also seemed like fairy tales to me at the time. But as time went on and I grew to become an adult I stopped watching the cartoons and turned on the news and became more interested in the non-fiction section of the library and came to realize the Holy Bible was a book of history. Many adults have not grown out of their childhood and now read the fairy tales for grownups, such as the theory of evolution, Planet of the Apes, and Star Trek.
I thought believing in fairy tales typically came at a younger age than reading comics, although upon reflection I realise that the majority of adults do the former more than the latter.
18 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsIt is what is in the original language which is most important.
I submit to you that a devil is the same as a demon and demons are devils.
It is the same Greek word that is translated "devil" or "demon" depending on the translator. So Satan the devil is demonic.
Refering to Revelation 20:13 once again.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works." (Rev. 20:13)
Do you agree that death and Hades contain all of the immaterial part of deceased human beings ? I certainly believe that no human being who has died does not have his or her soul and spirit in Hades.
Where are the people who died in the desert? In Hades.
Where are the people who died in the forest? In Hades.
Where are the people who died in the city? In Hades.
Where are the people who died on the battlefield? In Hades.
All of the humans who have departed this physical life have their souls, not only in Hades, but in death and Hades.
So then why did the Apostle John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit mention that "the sea gave up the dead which were in it" and immediately follow that with "and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them" ?
You see John could have said that the desert gave up the dead which were in it, the forrest, the city, the mountains, the battlefield gave up the dead which were in them. However, I submit that ALL of the dead human beings are summed up in the dead which were in them - with "them" being death and Hades.
The dead given up by the sea must be some other class of living beings.
There is a connection between the sea and the abyss in the Bible.
These are demons.
Otherwise the phrasing is needlessly redundant.
18 Jun 12
3 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]
It is what is in the original language which is most important.
Refering to [b]Revelation 20:13 once again.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works." (Rev. 20:13)
Do you agree that death and Hades[/b in the Bible.
These are demons.
Otherwise the phrasing is needlessly redundant.
You write, "It is what is in the original language which is most important."
I agree, that is why I am pointing out that it is the same Greek word in different forms due to Greek grammer that is in the orignal language. Some translate that word "devil" or "devils" others translate it "demon" or "demoniac" or "demons" and others translate the singular as "devil" or "demoniac" and the plural as "demons" or "demoniacs". Compare Young's Literal Translation, King's James Version, etc. with a Greek interlinear to see what words are being translated "devil, devils, demon, demons, demoniac, or demoniacs". It is all from the same root word. So this would indicate that a devil is the same as a demon.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the deah which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works." (Rev. 20:13)
Do you agree that death and Hades contain all of the immaterial part of deceased human beings ? I certainly believe that no human being who has died does not have his or her soul and spirit in Hades.
No. As I wrote before, I believe John mentions the sea, as well as Death, to make it clear to the readers of those days that all the bodies left over from the first resurrection would be resurrected in this second resurrection to face the Great White Throne Judgment. That is, those bodies buried at sea as well as those bodies in graves on land. DEATH represents THE GRAVES of the DEAD BODIES and is generally thought of as being on the earth. THE SEA includes the other DEAD BODIES that have their GRAVES in THE SEA. HADES represents THE PLACE FOR THE SOULS OF THE UNBELIEVING DEAD.
After the crucifixion of Christ, while His dead body remained in the grave of Death, His soul went into Hades to preach to the unbelieving souls there. All the unbelieving souls are in Hades regardless of whether their dead bodies are in the grave of The Sea or in the grave of Death. The believing souls are in paradise.
http://www.gotquestions.org/paradise.html
18 Jun 12
10 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
You write, "It is what is in the original language which is most important."
I agree, that is why I am pointing out that it is the same Greek word in different forms due to Greek grammer that is in the orignal language. Some translate that word "devil" or "devils" others translate it "demon" or "demoniac" or "demons" and others translate the ng souls are in paradise.
http://www.gotquestions.org/paradise.html[/b]
jw:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the deah which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works." (Rev. 20:13)
Do you agree that death and Hades contain all of the immaterial part of deceased human beings ? I certainly believe that no human being who has died does not have his or her soul and spirit in Hades.
RJ:
No. As I wrote before, I believe John mentions the sea, as well as Death, to make it clear to the readers of those days that all the bodies left over from the first resurrection would be resurrected in this second resurrection to face the Great White Throne Judgment.
But John can do that simply by saying "death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them". That is adaquate to accomplish the truth that all [remaining] dead human beings will be brought forth to the judgment of the great white throne.
I don't see why you think the mention of the dead of the sea adds to that communication of the truth of universal resurrection and judgment.
If John wanted to be poetic in a kind of exhaustive way, why would he only mention the sea, beside the dead in death and Hades ? Ie. The sea gave up the dead, and the desert, and the valley, and the forrest, and the cities, and the islands ... they ALL gave up the dead. Why does he single out "the sea" ?
That is, those bodies buried at sea as well as those bodies in graves on land.
Well, I understand your point. However "bodies" is not mentioned once in the chapter. John says in verse 12 "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne ...". He does not find it necessary to mention bodies. They were standing before God to be judged. That is the most important thing.
Your reason is not that strong to me. Besides, the all-incompassing container of dead humans is given in the beginning of the book. This is in the symbolism of the four horses. The rider being Death, followed by Hades: EDITED
"And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and he who sits upon it, his name is Death; and Hades followed with him. And authority was given to them over the fourth part of the earth to kill with the sword and with famine and with death and by the beasts of the earth." (Rev. 6:8)
In human history all dead populate Death and Hades. These killed during the time since mankind was on the earth are given up when in chapter 20 - "Death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them"
But then there is also "the dead" who have died, or been disembodied BEFORE human history. And they need a separate mention as the dead being given up by the sea. These dead and disembodied beings were not covered by those killed during human history of war, the sword, famine, the beasts of the earth, or typical natural dying since man was on the earth.
DEATH represents THE GRAVES of the DEAD BODIES and is generally thought of as being on the earth. THE SEA includes the other DEAD BODIES that have their GRAVES in THE SEA. HADES represents THE PLACE FOR THE SOULS OF THE UNBELIEVING DEAD.
Graves are not mentioned in Revelation 20.
Bodies are not mentioned in Revelation 20 either.
The mention of them, I think, might give you a clearer case.
Those died human beings have their departed souls in Hades.
Where their graves are is not important.
Some people had NO graves. That does not matter. Thier SOULS are in Hades whether they died at sea, buried at sea, or died on land, and had NO burial in a grave such as Jezebeel.
Those who had their corpses rot in an open field STILL have their souls in Death and Hades. Those with no grave who were perhaps burned to ashes, ALSO have their departed souls in Hades.
What happened to their bodies seems unimportant in Revelation 20. Where their souls are is what is important. And the fact that they were yielded up from that place.
In John chapter 5 Christ gets the point across that ALL dead human beings will be resurrected to be judged:
" Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28,29)
We get the point. There is no need to know what happens to those who are NOT buried in tombs. There is no need to inquire about those who died at sea by drowning. There is no need to inquire as to the fate of those whose corpses rotted in the desert or in the open field or on a mountain or in a pit of tar.
In the same way, all dead human beings, regardless of where their bodies finally ended up, are included in "death and Hades gave up the DEAD which were in them ..." (Rev. 20:13)
After the crucifixion of Christ, while His dead body remained in the grave of Death, His soul went into Hades to preach to the unbelieving souls there.
I don't think this point is too related. I think this is another topic of talk.
All the unbelieving souls are in Hades regardless of whether their dead bodies are in the grave of The Sea or in the grave of Death.
That is my point. Regardless of where their graves are or even exist, their souls are in Hades. So to indicate that all the dead (dead unbelievers if you wish), will be given up by death and Hades is universal for humans. [EDITED]
Since that is the case, the dead given up by the sea are probably dead beings who are not human. They too will be judged for their deeds.
The demons will be judged for their deeds.
18 Jun 12
2 edits
RJ, I know where you stand. Let me ask you another kind of question.
This may be unrelated to the demon / angel matter.
What is it that doesn't seem right to you about a long length of time, ie. billion years, in which MAN is not around ? You seem repulsed at the idea of the universe existing for millions or billions of years. I think we should talk about the any gut feel of that idea HAVING to be wrong.
Why do you think a humanless universe for million years or more cannot be right ?
Before you answer, I would admit that there is something perculiar in my mind about it. But I have ways of dealing with it.
18 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillSorry, I had to leave for awhile.
[quote]
jw:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the deah which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works." (Rev. 20:13)
Do you agree that death and Hades contain all of the immaterial part of deceased human beings ? I certainly believe that no human being who has died does n be judged for their deeds.
The demons will be judged for their deeds.
I know bodies or souls of the dead are not specifically mentioned, but you must remember that this is a vision and there is no such thing as a rider named Death or Hades on a horse either. These represent other things and I was explaining to you what they mean.
When God made the Earth, He made it of various minerals, elements, or solid substances covered with water, a liquid substance. He caused the water to gather together into one place so the solid substances (dry land) appeared. He called the waters by the name "seas" and the dry land by the name "earth". (Genesis 1:9-10)
So there are two main parts of the Earth were the dead bodies (material part of man) may go at death. They usually go into the ground on the Earth, but some may also go into the waters of the seas. This is the point of the vision also mentioning the sea as well as death, because death was normally associated only with the body returning to the dust of the ground (dry land). Hades is mentioned so the reader understands that the souls in Hades will be reunited with their bodies even though they may have their graves in the sea. So that at the second resurrection the dead will appear for judgment in full, body, soul, and spirit.
Humans are the only ones to appear before this jugement because Satan and his demon angels have already been thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. Remember this is the second resurrection for humans. There was only humans judged in the first resurrection, because Satan and his demon angels were already judged and they do not need a resurrection, since they are spirit beings apart from the Spirit of God. God did not make them to die like humans because they were made with spiritual bodies, not physical bodies like we have.
Originally posted by jaywillWell, I see the main purpose for God creating this universe is the first place is so He could create human life in the image of God. The universe is fine-tuned for life at our level, so it is obvious to me that we are his purpose since He also stopped creating after we humans were created.
RJ, I know where you stand. Let me ask you another kind of question.
This may be unrelated to the demon / angel matter.
What is it that doesn't seem right to you about a long length of time, ie. billion years, in which MAN is not around ? You seem repulsed at the idea of the universe existing for millions or billions of years. I think we should tal ...[text shortened]... dmit that there is something perculiar in my mind about it. But I have ways of dealing with it.
So, if God was anxious to create man, why would He prolong it for billions of years? Besides, He tells us He did it all in 6 days and rested on the 7th day and we are to remember this by working 6 days and resting on the 7th day too.
These days have to be 24 hour days. God left no leeway for me to conjure up billions of years, if I believe in the power of God and His eternal word.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
18 Jun 12
7 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
Sorry, I had to leave for awhile.
I know bodies or souls of the dead are not specifically mentioned, but you must remember that this is a vision and there is no such thing as a rider named Death or Hades on a horse either. These represent other things and I was explaining to you what they mean.
When God made the Earth, He made it of various minerals, el like humans because they were made with spiritual bodies, not physical bodies like we have.
Sorry, I had to leave for awhile.
I know bodies or souls of the dead are not specifically mentioned, but you must remember that this is a vision and there is no such thing as a rider named Death or Hades on a horse either. These represent other things and I was explaining to you what they mean.
Of course I know that the rider Death followed by Hades is symbolism.
The point is that what they represent is mentioned at two pivotal points.
1.) First you see in symbolism, Death and Hades being filled up with slain people. (ch. 5)
2.) Afterwards you see Death and Hades being emptied of the people who filled it. (ch. 20)
When God made the Earth, He made it of various minerals, elements, or solid substances covered with water, a liquid substance. He caused the water to gather together into one place so the solid substances (dry land) appeared. He called the waters by the name "seas" and the dry land by the name "earth". (Genesis 1:9-10)
Okay.
So there are two main parts of the Earth were the dead bodies (material part of man) may go at death. They usually go into the ground on the Earth, but some may also go into the waters of the seas. This is the point of the vision also mentioning the sea as well as death, because death was normally associated only with the body returning to the dust of the ground (dry land).
Death and Hades are discarded in Revelation 20:14 because a HOLDING AREA for the dead human beings is no longer needed:
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire ..."
The sea is also discarded in Revelation 21:1 for a similar reason. A holding area of the dead who were demons is also no longer needed.
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth ... and the sea is no more."
Hades is mentioned so the reader understands that the souls in Hades will be reunited with their bodies even though they may have their graves in the sea. So that at the second resurrection the dead will appear for judgment in full, body, soul, and spirit.
If that is what you get from it, that is fine with me.
I see something more, as I have explained.
"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne ..." (20:12)
This dead includes all beings human and demons. The great among them is included and the small among them are included. And without exception everything inbetween.
That is verse 12. Then the next verse [edited] 13 explains where these DEAD came from - TWO places:
1.) The sea
2.) Death and Hades
Humans are the only ones to appear before this jugement because Satan and his demon angels have already been thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. Remember this is the second resurrection for humans.
Where do you read this that demons and angels or (your demon-angels) were thrown in ? [edited]
We are told in verse 10 that the devil was thrown into the lake of fire.
We are told that he meets there with the antichrist and the false prophet who are still there 1,000 years after they were thrown in in Revelation 19:20:
"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet ... These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimestone." (19:20)
Where do you read that "demon angels" have been cast into the lake of fire ?
Before the millennium we see antichrist and the false prophet go there (19:20) And before the millennium we see some of the people alive on the earth when Jesus comes go into the eternal fire. (Matt. 25:46) [edited]
But as I have pointed out before, it only said that the eternal fire had been "prepared for the devil and his angels" . That suggests that they are not there yet. We know that what has been "prepared" for the devil, he does not actually partake of in full until after the millennium (Rev:20:10):
"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire ..." (20:10)
I think you can only make two assumptions:
1.) Demons and angels are the same.
2.) When Satan is cast into the lake of fire his "demon angels", as you say, go in also.
Well, for certain, eventually all of Satan's cohorts share his miserable destiny.
As for me, I say the only place we are told that the demons are explicitly judged is in this verse:
"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; ... And the dead were judged."
The very next verse explains the two sources which yielded up the dead.
There was only humans judged in the first resurrection, because Satan and his demon angels were already judged and they do not need a resurrection, since they are spirit beings apart from the Spirit of God. God did not make them to die like humans because they were made with spiritual bodies, not physical bodies like we have.
I may comment on this latter. I have removed some comment previously written.
18 Jun 12
8 edits
Originally posted by jaywillAs I said before, the 1st and 2nd resurrections are for humans only. The first resurrection was obviously only for the believing humans. A resurrection means the material body and soul are reuited by the Spirit of God and become alive again just like Christ's body was resurrected. I know the JWs don't believe Christ was resurrected with His material body, however, I believe you do believe that, don't you?Sorry, I had to leave for awhile.
I know bodies or souls of the dead are not specifically mentioned, but you must remember that this is a vision and there is no such thing as a rider named Death or Hades on a horse either. These represent other things and I was explaining to you what they mean.
Of course I know that the rider Death f know of such a verse or not. I want to see what you come up with.)
This 2nd resurrection is a physical bodily resurrection just like the resurrection for Jesus and for those in the 1st resurrection. Satan and his angels, including his demons, which has alresdy been proved to be unclean spirit beings have no physical bodies to be resurrected. So they can not be the dead referred to because these dead are being resurrected in the 2nd resurrection.
Okay, John forgets to tell us when Satan's angels, including his demons, are actually casts into the lake of fire and brimstone. However, from verse 10 where the devil is said to have been cast there after the beast and the false prophet, we can infer that his angels, including his demons, are included with the possessed beast and the possessed false prophet. Satan the devil is the last of the demons to be cast there to be tormented.
I repeat the dead can not possibly be demons because demons are spirit beings that don't die and nothing has ever been said about the good and bad deeds of demons being written down in books. Also by deductive reasoning, they should have already been thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, which has been prepared for them. They need no further judgment, if it has already been prepared for them. Simple deductive reasoning.
There are no verses that say Satan the devil and his angels, including demons, are dead. Where is this verse that says demons are dead or can die? Their fate is to be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where they are to be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10) This is what I think the demons were referring to when they asked Christ if He had come to torment them before their time.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
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18 Jun 12
Originally posted by SwissGambitHey I like the new Sherlock Holmes films.
I was going to use "Praise the Great Sleuth Sherlock Holmes and His Sidekick, Dr. Watson". It would sound a bit more intellectual if only that #&$$((#*ing Robert Downey Jr. hadn't turned him into an action figure.
They are closer to the character in the books than most of the other films I have seen.
The Holmes of the books was renowned as a boxer and knew some martial arts, and
was frequently to be found in disguises and in daring chases.
He was also a drug addict and prone to dark moods and weird experiments.
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18 Jun 12
Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, I see the main purpose for God creating this universe is the first place is so He could create human life in the image of God. The universe is fine-tuned for life at our level, so it is obvious to me that we are his purpose since He also stopped creating after we humans were created.
So, if God was anxious to create man, why would He prolong it for ...[text shortened]... ears, if I believe in the power of God and His eternal word.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
Well, I see the main purpose for God creating this universe is the first place is so He could create human life in the image of God.
WHY?
What For?
And how can you possibly know?
Where is your evidence?
The universe is fine-tuned for life at our level ...
Bull Excrement.
The universe is plainly not fine tuned for life.
Again Where is your evidence?
... so it is obvious to me that we are his purpose since He also stopped creating after we humans were created.
Again, Bull Excrement.
New species have arisen since we evolved, we were not created, and we are still evolving.
Again, EVIDENCE... where is it?
So, if God was anxious to create man, why would He prolong it for billions of years? ...
You have provided and have no evidence or viable reasoning to support the assertion that exists let alone created anything and thus
you cannot use your assertion that god does exist and did create us as a foundation for any further argument or reasoning.
18 Jun 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeI am speaking of spiritual things, which the natural mind can not understand.Well, I see the main purpose for God creating this universe is the first place is so He could create human life in the image of God.
WHY?
What For?
And how can you possibly know?
Where is your evidence?
The universe is fine-tuned for life at our level ...
Bull Excrement.
The universe is plainly not fin ...[text shortened]... ion that god does exist and did create us as a foundation for any further argument or reasoning.
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
(1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
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18 Jun 12
Originally posted by RJHindsYou are talking nonsense about things not existent in reality.
I am speaking of spiritual things, which the natural mind can not understand.
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
(1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
You claim to be talking about 'spiritual' [nonsense] things, and yet spend a large proportion
of your time denying evolution [and the entire rest of science].
Which [evolution] is a NATURAL process that occurs in the real (natural) world that is real and observed.
So if you are going to claim that your 'spiritual' nonsense has implications for the natural world
then I am going to apply rigourus standards of logic and evidence to your 'spiritual' claims.
Reality doesn't require you to believe in it before it exists.
It's one of realities defining points.
If your god is only detectable IF you believe in it then it isn't real and doesn't exist.
And it certainly doesn't effect reality and our observations of the nature of reality.
Science works, religion doesn't.