And Equal Time for the Gap Theory

Originally posted by RJHinds
In the book of Job, there still seems to be a relationship between God and Satan, when God asks Satan where he has been. Satan says something about roaming the Earth. Although Satan seems to be complaining to God about mankind, Satan does not seem to have been banished from the third Heaven at that time. The Land of Uz, was Job's homeland, so it is very l ...[text shortened]... ies of Christ in the Old Testament that tell of a futher time that has only partly taken place.

Praise the living and victorious Lord Jesus.

I want to make sure we are on the same page. So I go through this paragraph in detail.

In the book of Job, there still seems to be a relationship between God and Satan, when God asks Satan where he has been.

This is true. And the relationship is AFTER the temptation of Eve in Genesis 3, obviously, as Job is Eve's descendent. It is also after Satan has undergone some judgment by God.

His advasarial competition with God from within God's kingdom is already in full force. He comes before God WITH the other angels. But his motives are vindictive, rebellious, slanderous, opposing, libelous and destructive against God in every way.

The LOSS of authority does not mean he cannot approach God.

This is something like an employee who has been fired. Yet he can still come to the building and make ugly comments.

The expulsions mentioned in Ezekiel and Isaiah may mainly mean an expulsion of the legitimate deputy authority. He is cast down from the governement of God. We need not understand it as his inability to find his way back before God to slander, accuse, and make challenges against his Creator.

After the Daystar was judged (for it would be unrighteous of God to NOT judge him in some measure) he retains some liberty to appear before God. And in Job we see the expelled deputy still disgruntledly appearing in God's council. But there is utterly no holy cooperation. He comes ONLY to make trouble.

Satan says something about roaming the Earth.

The restriction of Satan is executed over the ages in stages. Here he no longer has authority in the government of God. Yet he can roam the earth and appear with complaints before God. He is the accuser of the brothers.

In Revelation 12 he is further limited to be cast to the earth ONLY. But that time of limitation is three and one half years or 1,360 days. Here is proof that this descent of Satan is specifically the last years of age before the millennium:

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12)

The short time is the a thousand two hundred and sixty days (v.6) that the seed of the Woman, the Christians and Jews, are persecuted by the dragon.

Was Satan ever on the earth before ? Yes. But he had freedom to appear as "the accuser of the brothers" before God as in the book of Job and in Revelation 12 before he is cast down.

It is this limiting descent of Satan that is the CAUSE of the great tribulation precisely - "Woe to the earth and the sea BECAUSE THE DEVIL HAS COME DOWN TO YOU AND HAS GREAT RAGE, KNOWING THAT HE HAS ONLY A SHORT TIME".

Before as he could travel back to his old place of origin, he had more time. Now no longer being able to do that (Rev. 12:7-9) the nature of the relationship has changed for the worst. He knows he has only a short time.

This desperation prompts Satan to raise up Antichrist invested with the full authority of Satan.

The main point here is that Ezekiel's and Isaiah's utterances do not have to mean that this being had no way to go to God with accusations and slanders before His throne.

Although Satan seems to be complaining to God about mankind, Satan does not seem to have been banished from the third Heaven at that time.

That is right. So this is after the fall of man for Job is after Adam's sin.
This is also before the three and one half year expulsion at the end of the church age.
And this is after the loss of his legitimate authority and subsequent expulsion from the govenment of God, the mountain of God, and any place in Heaven of permanance.

So the bitter confilict between God and Satan that other Bible verses speak had not happened at the time of Job. So these Bible verses you refer to may even be like the prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament that tell of a futher time that has only partly taken place.

What I understand you to be reasoning is that the history of Ezekiel 28 upon the Anointed Cherub and the history of Isaiah 14 upon the Daystar must refer to something happening AFTER Satan is seen appearing before God in Job.

Do I follow your logic rightly ? I'll comment on this logic in another post.

Praise and thank the glorious and victorious Godman - Christ the Victor.

RJH - your reasons arrived at this:

So the bitter confilict between God and Satan that other Bible verses speak had not happened at the time of Job. So these Bible verses you refer to may even be like the prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament that tell of a futher time that has only partly taken place.

It is easier for me to imagine that the EDEN the garden of God, mentioned in Ezekiel refers to a PRIOR Eden rather than one after Genesis 3.

You are saying that after the Eden of Adam and Eve, and after the time of their descendent Job, there is another Eden where the anointed cherub was.

"You were in Eden, the garden of God" (Ezek. 28:13) But according to your logic this Eden is something after the time of Job.

"You were the anointed cherub who covered the Ark ; indeed I set you, so that you were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Your interpretation seems to imply to me that when Satan appears as a slanderer and opposer within God's kingdom in the book of Job he is still the dignified anointed cherub who covers.

The cherub of gold upon the Ark covering the propitiation cover ("mercy seat" KJV) must symbolize some heavenly beings exceedingly close to the glorious God. It is very hard to imagine that the Slanderer who appears before God in Job still retains ANY honored previledge as this.

I rather think that when this Slanderer is seen in Job, he has already FULLY become reprobate in every conceivable way. He can only appear before God because he is blinded by his own deception from the glorious light of God.

The only way I can understand Ezekiel's utterance to be something AFTER the time of Job is this: Probably, some aspects of the propecy pertain to the final Antichrist who after all will be the embodiment of Satan at the end of the age.

There are probably some utterances there which we might consider relevant to the man Antichrist (perhaps 28:18,19) [/b]

If we say that the Eden, the garden of God is Heaven, then we should also say that in Job Satan must have still been the anointed cherub covered or housed in all kinds of precious gems honored to be the covering cherub of glory.

I think it is better to understand that this Eden, the garden of God is something PRIOR to Adam and Job rather than during or afterwards. And the functions and activities of this honored being gone wrong, have long since soured. His rebellion has fermented and been manifested long before Adam and Job. But his limitations are being carried out in successive stages.

Next to come is his being banned from appearing as an accuser.
Then his being locked up for 1,000 years.
Then his being thrown finally into the lake of fire for eternity.

Originally posted by jaywill
Praise the living and victorious Lord Jesus.

I want to make sure we are on the same page. So I go through this paragraph in detail.

In the book of Job, there still seems to be a relationship between God and Satan, when God asks Satan where he has been.

This is true. And the relationship is AFTER the temptation of Eve in Ge ...[text shortened]...

Do I follow your logic rightly ? I'll comment on this logic in another post.

Yes, that is basically it. I do not see any support for an Earth that was inhabited and then destroyed and then re-created for Adam and Eve.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes, that is basically it. I do not see any support for an Earth that was inhabited and then destroyed and then re-created for Adam and Eve.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Praise the Lord. Amen for His resurrection and ascension.
Praise the Lord He became a life giving Spirit to indwells us.

Yes, that is basically it. I do not see any support for an Earth that was inhabited and then destroyed and then re-created for Adam and Eve.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Okay. Let me ask you a few.

What do you think the demons are ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Praise the Lord. Amen for His resurrection and ascension.
Praise the Lord He became a life giving Spirit to indwells us.

Yes, that is basically it. I do not see any support for an Earth that was inhabited and then destroyed and then re-created for Adam and Eve.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Okay. Let me ask you a few.

What do you think the demons are ?

I think demons are evil spirit beings without physical bodies, like Satan the devil. They are called demons because they like to overcoming the will of humans and possess their bodies to do their evil mischief.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think demons are evil spirit beings without physical bodies, like Satan the devil. They are called demons because they like to overcoming the will of humans and possess their bodies to do their evil mischief.

I think demons are evil spirit beings without physical bodies, like Satan the devil. They are called demons because they like to overcoming the will of humans and possess their bodies to do their evil mischief.

I think these beings at one time possessed bodies and lost them.
That is why they crave to possess the bodies of other beings, especially those of sinners among human beings.

At what time do you think they possessed bodies and lost them ?

Originally posted by jaywill

I think demons are evil spirit beings without physical bodies, like Satan the devil. They are called demons because they like to overcoming the will of humans and possess their bodies to do their evil mischief.

I think these beings at one time possessed bodies and lost them.
That is why they crave to possess the bodies of other beings, e ...[text shortened]... sinners among human beings.

At what time do you think they possessed bodies and lost them ?

The first thing that comes to mind is when a legion of demons had possessed a man and Jesus referred to them as an unclean spirit and commanded them to come out and allowed them to enter a herd of about 2000 pigs at their request. Then the pigs stampeded into the sea and drowned. They would have possessed a body then and lost it and possessed pig bodies and lost them when they drowned. Every time demons are cast out of a body or the body dies they have lost the body. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
The first thing that comes to mind is when a legion of demons had possessed a man and Jesus referred to them as an unclean spirit and commanded them to come out and allowed them to enter a herd of about 2000 pigs at their request. Then the pigs stampeded into the sea and drowned. They would have possessed a body then and lost it and possessed pig bodies an ...[text shortened]... cast out of a body or the body dies they have lost the body. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Glory and praise to our Lord Jesus. He's the Victor over every foe.

The first thing that comes to mind is when a legion of demons had possessed a man and Jesus referred to them as an unclean spirit and commanded them to come out and allowed them to enter a herd of about 2000 pigs at their request. Then the pigs stampeded into the sea and drowned. They would have possessed a body then and lost it and possessed pig bodies and lost them when they drowned. Every time demons are cast out of a body or the body dies they have lost the body. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

You have said that you do not believe in any destroyed pre-Adamic earth. Well, I beleive that these demons are the disembodied creatures who had bodies in the time before the creation of man. In the world that then was under the Daystar, these creatures followed him in his rebellion.

Part of their judgment was to lose their bodies. In terms of that world they are "the dead" . These are not fallen angels, these demons. These are the disembodied creatures who existed in some previous world of this present earth. This I think I can back up with a logical examination of Scripture.

Have you ever heard this before?

Now let me review your paragraph to better understand it in this light.

The first thing that comes to mind is when a legion of demons had possessed a man and Jesus referred to them as an unclean spirit and commanded them to come out and allowed them to enter a herd of about 2000 pigs at their request.

The demons possessed a man. He was not born with them. They invaded his body. He had given them ground to do so because of his wickedness.

My point is that before they invaded the man's body they were themselves disembodied. They were illegally there in that man.

How do I know that ? I know that because before human demon possession occurs the human is clean beforehand. As far as evil spirits are concerned, he is "clean" without them. They are a foreign defiling matter.

I do not mean that the man is without sin. But as to the demons, he is repentant and clean, orderly and considered proper. So the presence of a demon in a human is abnormal and contrary to the proper human state. Christ proves this here:

When the unclean spirit foes out from the man, it roams through waterless places, seeking rest, and does not find it. Then it says, I will return to my house from which I came out. And it comes and finds it unoccupied, swept, and decorated.

Then it goes and takes along with itself seven other spirits mroe evil than itself, and they enter in and settle down there. And the last state of that man is worse than the first. Thus shall it be with this generation. (Matt. 12:43-45)

1.) The demon's being in the man rendered the man unclean. That is abnormal. Demons do not belong in human beings.

2.) The demon went out of the man because he was cast out. This was to restore the man to normality, unpossessed by an evil spirit.

3.) Without a body, the demon is without rest. We will discuss "waterless places" latter.

4.) The demon's illegal occupency was considered by the demon as his house - "I will return to my house" . This is indeed dreadful. The man's body is effectively the man's house. But the evil dirty demon considers the man's body from which he was cast out, his house.

5.) The state of the demon outside of the man is restless and roaming. This means it is unnatural for the spirit to be without a body. But the one to which it wants to return is the property of the delivered human.

6.) The state of the repentant man from whom the demon has gone out is "unoccupied (by evil spirits), swept and decorated". In other words the man's being is cleaner without the evil spirit the way man was intended to be.

7.) The evil demon, in order to more powerfully secure the usurped man, brings with it many other demons who are more evil than itself. There is power in greater numbers to secure the poor man's body.

" ... it goes and takes along with itself seven other spirits MORE EVIL than itself, and they enter and settle down there."

8.) The last state of the demon possessed man who was freed and then re-possessed is worse than the first state.

There is now more evil in him. There is not just one evil spirit but seven evil spirits there now, to hold on to their illegal occupancy.

There are a number of lessons here. By now I only focus on one in particular,
Normal is the man to be without an evil demonic spirit.
Normal is for the spirit to have had its own body and not be evil.

Abnormal is for the demons use the man's body for thier house.
Man was not created for demonic possession and is orderly without demon possession.

So when did the demons have their own bodies ? And why did they lose those bodies? In a pre-adamic world they had bodies. They lost their own bodies before the creation of man, before Adam was made in Genesis 1,2.

Then the pigs stampeded into the sea and drowned. They would have possessed a body then and lost it and possessed pig bodies and lost them when they drowned.

The demons went OUT from their illegal possession of the human and into the pigs. Rather than roam about in "waterless places" they prefered to inahbit the pigs if they could not have the man.

Remember - "When the unclean spirit goes out from the man, it roams through waterless places, seeking rest, AND DOES NOT FIND IT." (Matt. 12:43)

I submit to you then this logic:

1.) The demons top preference is to have their own bodies which they were created with. But they have LOST them.

2.) The unpleasant place to which they are assigned in this state is the water, the sea. This they do not like.

3.) They come up out of water places, ie. the sea, and they enter into human sinners. That is some sinners among people, the demons possess for bodies.

4.) Being expelled from a human body they have to settle for something better than roaming in "waterless places".

5.) The demons prefer even a PIG's body than being disembodied.

6.) Somehow the pigs not tolerating the possession ran down into a water place, That is into the sea. This could have been the desperate demons fleeing Christ to escape into the place to which they are suppose to be confined, the sea.

"And behold, they creid out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us? " (Matt. 8:29)

The demons know that their final irrevokable destiny is eternal torment. It is only a matter of time for them. In the mean time they escape into the sea. That is not a waterless place. In this age that is where they are suppose to stay.

Every time demons are cast out of a body or the body dies they have lost the body. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

In order of best to worst scenario, this is what the demons want:

1.) Their own bodies
2.) Human bodies
3.) Animal bodies
4.) Roam outside the sea
5.) The sea of a watered place
6.) The eternal torment of judgment

From most desireable to least desireable, this is what the passages indicate in Matthew 8 and 12.

I am not finished yet. But an important point here is that the bodies the demon spirits had were bodies on the earth before the creation of man. That is the earth that became without form and void in God's judgment against the pre-Adamic kingdom headed up by Satan.

Originally posted by jaywill
Glory and praise to our Lord Jesus. He's the Victor over every foe.


[quote] The first thing that comes to mind is when a legion of demons had possessed a man and Jesus referred to them as an unclean spirit and commanded them to come out and allowed them to enter a herd of about 2000 pigs at their request. Then the pigs stampeded into the sea and drowne ...[text shortened]... od's judgment against the pre-Adamic kingdom headed up by Satan.

You say, "Normal is for the spirit to have had its own body and not be evil."

God made the spirit beings with spiritual bodies like He did with Lucifer, who became Satan the Devil. They had no business leaving that state by entering a physical body as Satan did in the Garden of Eden. I think demons are those spirit beings that became evil by following Satan into sinning against God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]You say, "Normal is for the spirit to have had its own body and not be evil."

God made the spirit beings with spiritual bodies like He did with Lucifer, who became Satan the Devil. They had no business leaving that state by entering a physical body as Satan did in the Garden of Eden. I think demons are those spirit beings that became evil by following Satan into sinning against God.[/b]

God made the spirit beings with spiritual bodies like He did with Lucifer, who became Satan the Devil. They had no business leaving that state by entering a physical body as Satan did in the Garden of Eden. I think demons are those spirit beings that became evil by following Satan into sinning against God.

Do you mean that you think the demons are disembodied angels ?

Originally posted by jaywill

God made the spirit beings with spiritual bodies like He did with Lucifer, who became Satan the Devil. They had no business leaving that state by entering a physical body as Satan did in the Garden of Eden. I think demons are those spirit beings that became evil by following Satan into sinning against God.

Do you mean that you think the demons are disembodied angels ?

Nooo. I don't think sooo.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Nooo. I don't think sooo.

Praise the Lord for His redemption. Jesus is Lord !

Nooo. I don't think sooo.

I understand you to believe then, that there were in Heaven at least two classes of spiritual beings ?

If the demons had these bodies in heaven and now do not,
and if the angels had these bodies in heaven and now do not, then do you have any thoughts on what was the difference between these two kinds of beings ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Praise the Lord for His redemption. Jesus is Lord !

[b]Nooo. I don't think sooo.

I understand you to believe then, that there were in Heaven at least two classes of spiritual beings ?

If the demons had these bodies in heaven and now do not,
and if the angels had these bodies in heaven and now do not, then do you have any thoughts on what was the difference between these two kinds of beings ?[/b]

I said I believe God created spirit beings with spiritual bodies. They do no have to lose spiritual bodies to enter into and possess physical bodies. It is like, we can enter a house without losing our physical bodies. The spirit being can enter the house of a physical body without losing his spirit body. Christ spoke of His physical body as a temple. As the Son of God, He did not have to leave his spiritual body in Heaven. He was fully God in bodily form (physical body).
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
I said I believe God created spirit beings with spiritual bodies. They do no have to lose spiritual bodies to enter into and possess physical bodies. It is like, we can enter a house without losing our physical bodies. The spirit being can enter the house of a physical body without losing his spirit body. Christ spoke of His physical body as a temple. A ...[text shortened]... y in Heaven. He was fully God in bodily form (physical body).
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Praise the Lord Jesus indeed.

Before I continue to explain how I understand these things I want to make sure I understand you.

Above you wrote:

God made the spirit beings with spiritual bodies like He did with Lucifer, who became Satan the Devil. They had no business leaving that state by entering a physical body as Satan did in the Garden of Eden. I think demons are those spirit beings that became evil by following Satan into sinning against God.

I understand you to mean the "no business leaving that state" means the angels and the demons left a heavenly state but WITH their spiritual bodies.

You did not identify any significant difference between angels and demons. But you believe they both are not disembodied. But the demons invade human bodies having their own spiritual bodies.

The serpent was possessed by Satan but Satan still had his spiritual body.
The demons possess some sinners. But the demons also still have the bodies God created for them.

In Matthew 8 the demons went into the man but still had their own bodies.
Then they went into the hogs but they still had their own bodies.

Is that your view ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Praise the Lord Jesus indeed.

Before I continue to explain how I understand these things I want to make sure I understand you.

Above you wrote:

[quote] God made the spirit beings with spiritual bodies like He did with Lucifer, who became Satan the Devil. They had no business leaving that state by entering a physical body as Satan did in the Gard ...[text shortened]...
Then they went into the hogs but they still had their own bodies.

Is that your view ?

You seem to be getting amnesia. In answer to your question about what demons were, I wrote, "I think demons are evil spirit beings without physical bodies, like Satan the devil. They are called demons because they like to overcoming the will of humans and possess their bodies to do their evil mischief. I never said they did not have their own spiritual bodies.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Christ only has a spiritual body now. As Christians, we believe Christ has both a spiritual and a physical body, because we believe Christ if fully God and fully man. At least, that is my understanding of what Christians believe about Christ. Do you have a different understanding?

You seem to be suggesting that God created spirit creatures, like angels, without any kind of body. Is that what you think?