And Equal Time for the Gap Theory

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] I would like us to come to an agreement on the demons before getting too deep into other subjects. I think the old King's James Version makes demon possession easier to understand and that a demon, devil, and unclean spirit is speaking of the same thing. IT IS NOT SPEAKING OF THE SOUL OR SPIRIT OF A DEAD HUMAN FOR THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHEN THE COND indication that I hold no such concept as demons being HUMAN in ANY conceivable way ?[/b]

Okay, we agree that demons have nothing to do with humans from Adam to today, Right? But you said, "Well, I beleive that these demons are the disembodied creatures who had bodies in the time before the creation of man. In the world that then was under the Daystar, these creatures followed him in his rebellion.

Part of their judgment was to lose their bodies. In terms of that world they are "the dead" . These are not fallen angels, these demons. These are the disembodied creatures who existed in some previous world of this present earth. This I think I can back up with a logical examination of Scripture."

It is my understanding that the only creatures created before mankind and the physical creation of the heavens and the Earth were spirit beings, in the invisible spiritual third heaven, that we commonly refer to as angels, like Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer (Satan). They have spirit bodies, not physical bodies.

You seem to be saying that before God created this Earth, He created some other physical world with creatures having physical bodies and they disobeyed God and He punished them by taking away their bodies, but allowed their souls or spirits to roam around freely, so that when mankind was created they could inhabit other physical bodies of their choice. Is that correct? If so, what is the evidence you claim is in the Holy Bible?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Okay, we agree that demons have nothing to do with humans from Adam to today, Right? But you said, "Well, I beleive that these demons are the disembodied creatures who had bodies in the time before the creation of man. In the world that then was under the Daystar, these creatures followed him in his rebellion.

Part of their judgment was to lose their b their choice. Is that correct? If so, what is the evidence you claim is in the Holy Bible?

Praise the Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus we love You. Amen.

Okay, we agree that demons have nothing to do with humans from Adam to today, Right?

That is right. Demons are creatures who are left over from a long past and failed age of which we know very little about. What ever they were originally, their time of repentance and reconcialation to God must have ended long ago.

If you press me too much about the nature of their bodies, or what they were, I cannot answer. I think the whole system of that pre-Adamic world would be very alien to us today.

The demons only await their terrible doom of "the time" of judgment to come, the inevitable time - (Matt. 8:29).

Seven of them went into Mary Magdalene before she became a disciple. The man with the "legion" of demons had over 1,000 if we take the word "legion" in the Roman sense.

Some more pernicious ones seem to have a special more severe confinement until the end times (See Revelation 9). This is true also of certain angels. Some are still freerer. Others for more pernicious crimes merited a more serious confinement (Jude 6)

"And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgement of the great day."

Can you see this ? In the Bible some of the bad angels are relatively freerer. But others are more dangerous and must have committed more serious sins. They are specially incarcerated.

The same is true of the demons. We see some wandering around making making war on the saints and causing heartache to fallen sinners. And we see others who are specially confined who will not be released until Antichrist and Satan release them in the 5th trumpet in the great tribulation (See Revelation 9) .

But you said, "Well, I beleive that these demons are the disembodied creatures who had bodies in the time before the creation of man.

That is what I believe. I do not know what they were.
I think the sea today is a place where God has ordained for them to remain.
But like the symbolic frogs in Revelation 16:13 and like the frogs of the Exodus 8:1-15 they come up out of the water.

Dr. Derek Prince has some insight into demons:
(though he calls them "persons" he is not saying that they are human)

The Enemies We Face
YouTube&feature=related

In the world that then was under the Daystar, these creatures followed him in his rebellion.

Part of their judgment was to lose their bodies. In terms of that world they are "the dead" . These are not fallen angels, these demons. These are the disembodied creatures who existed in some previous world of this present earth. This I think I can back up with a logical examination of Scripture."

It is my understanding that the only creatures created before mankind and the physical creation of the heavens and the Earth were spirit beings, in the invisible spiritual third heaven, that we commonly refer to as angels, like Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer (Satan). They have spirit bodies, not physical bodies.

I understand your position.

1.) Only Heaven existed before the first day of Genesis 1.

2.) Only angels as spirit beings existed before in Heaven.

3.) Aside from the good angels the only evil spirits are the bad angels who followed Satan.


I respect the view. I think it is incomplete. It is important to you that no physical planet earth and no pre-adamic world be a part of your theology. This too I respect but think it is problematic.

I think when you begin to surmise that Satan's first sin was to tempt Eve you are going to have biblical problems. I think when you surmise that Satan was cast from Heaven when there was only heaven in existence, you are going to have problems.

In Genesis 3 God caused man to have to make a choice from his free will. Man had to make a choice to EITHER align himself with God or align himself with Satan. This was done through the two trees:

"And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen. 2:9)

"And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat freely, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:16,17)

You see, I think rather than Satan's lie to Eve being Satan's FIRST sin it was "the last straw" among many previous transgressions. The establishing of the two trees, one to represent God and His eternal life - "the tree of life" and the other to represent independence and from God "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" suggest the replay of an old scheme.

Lucifer the Daystar had already tried to be like the Most High (Isa. 14:14). And this choice presented to man as two trees seems God's way of saying:

"Are you going to be one with Me or do you choose to withdraw from Me ?"

My understanding is that a principle was established for man. The very existence of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil was because there were now TWO WILLS in the universe. Before the fall of Lucifer there was only the will of God. From the rebellion of Lucifer there were now TWO wills in existence. And these two trees indicated man inbetween these two wills.

Adam must move from his neutral stage of innocence and choose which way he wants to go. He made the wrong choice and the kingdom of darkness invaded the world with its sin and death. And the rest of the Bible is the story of God's salvation from this fall of man to recover God's one will - His eternal purpose.

My main point here is that the two trees, I think, indicate Satan had previously initiated and created a whole realm where lesser beings could follow him in his rebellion from God - a dynamic withdrawal into sin, death, and eventual judgment.

You seem to be saying that before God created this Earth, He created some other physical world with creatures having physical bodies and they disobeyed God and He punished them by taking away their bodies, but allowed their souls or spirits to roam around freely,

The fallen angels and the demons were powerless before the disobedience of Adam. The foothold they gained in our world came about when Adam disobeyed God and came under the authority of darkness.

They did not have much freedom. But they were still in existence. When Adam sinned and came under Satan's authority the system of darkness gained that power. Both the bad angels and the demons got a foothold in the earth and established their evil kingdom of darkness.

so that when mankind was created they could inhabit other physical bodies of their choice. Is that correct? If so, what is the evidence you claim is in the Holy Bible?

It seems that sinners can concede over to the demons some enfluence and control. They cannot inhabit at will. Witchcraft, intense sin, occult activity, serious and persistent sinning, magic, passivity can cause the human to be invaded by the demons.

I do not want you to have the impression that demons can do whatever without the allowance of sinful man. God commanded His people not to contact familiar spirits. So power is relinquished over to demons by disobedient sinners.


Now I have included a link above and I think I need to review it. I may not endorse everything in it. So I am going to take some time to review it myself. I think there is some useful teaching there.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Okay, we agree that demons have nothing to do with humans from Adam to today, Right? But you said, "Well, I beleive that these demons are the disembodied creatures who had bodies in the time before the creation of man. In the world that then was under the Daystar, these creatures followed him in his rebellion.

Part of their judgment was to lose their b their choice. Is that correct? If so, what is the evidence you claim is in the Holy Bible?

You seem to be saying that before God created this Earth, He created some other physical world with creatures having physical bodies and they disobeyed God and He punished them by taking away their bodies, but allowed their souls or spirits to roam around freely, so that when mankind was created they could inhabit other physical bodies of their choice. Is that correct? If so, what is the evidence you claim is in the Holy Bible?

It is possible to have a view of the Bible that excludes any previous universe to the six days. I think it is a lot of hard work to defend it when it is examined closely.

What I think people tend to do is to then MOVE the gap that belongs between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 to other places so as to make sense of things.

Ken Hovind told me years ago that Adam may have been in the garden 100 years before the choice was made to him about the two trees. (If I recall our phone conversation accurately).

See, what he is compelled to do in order to make sure no pre-adamic age is held, is to transfer the Interval of unspecified time between verse 1 and 2 to put it somewhere else.

I think to just leave it where it is, between when God created the heavens and the earth and it was recovered with further creation on the six days. In that gap of unspecified length the ancient rebellion of Satan fits.

Not only this, But as I pointed out Psalm 8 on creation strongly suggests that in the mind of God, when He created man, it was in view of stopping the avenger and the advasaries.

Why was Satan an "avenger" ? He wanted to avenge the depriving of him of his previous glorious empire when he was the beautiful and wise Daystar. His existence was prolonged for a season. But his priesthood and previledge were taken away. He seeks revenge. He is the avenger to get back at his Creator.

Now, that he wanted to ascend to heaven, I think suggests the existence of a lower physical earth. If only Heaven existed was there any need to ascend ? Maybe so. But I think a past earth became judged because of Satan's rebellion.

In Genesis, God says nothing about that because His focus and interest by then is Adam, is man, is humanity. However, latter in the revelation of the Bible it becomes necessary that we get a glimpse of Satan's history. Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are instances of the "prophetic past".

Then some might say "If there were intelligent beings on earth before Adam, where are their fossils?"

1.) The nature of that world we may not know. They may not have been physical in exactly the same way.

2.) God swallowed up rebellious Korah in the book of Numbers and not a trace was left. God could have also done that to those beings.

3.) Maybe there are fossils in some not accessible place like beneath the ocean.

4.) Maybe they were of some nature that they dissolved into the elements rather than left fossils.

5.) Maybe the bodies were of some special characteristics we do not understand.

I do not know. But these are possibilities.

We see the demons go into the hogs. We see the hogs rush down in great number into the sea and drown. Why?

Maybe the demons in the hogs sought to escape by returning to the place they knew they should remain. That is the sea. Perhaps the demons thought they could have the hog bodies in the sea. Of course that wouldn't work.

I don't know yet why the hogs rushed down into the sea when they became demon possessed.

Originally posted by jaywill
Praise the Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus we love You. Amen.

Okay, we agree that demons have nothing to do with humans from Adam to today, Right?

That is right. Demons are creatures who are left over from a long past and failed age of which we know very little about. What ever they were originally, their time of repentance and reconciala review it myself. I think there is some useful teaching there.

I haven't looked at your links yet, but I will do it. However, I would like to correct one thing you think I believe, first. You said, "I think when you begin to surmise that Satan's first sin was to tempt Eve you are going to have biblical problems. I think when you surmise that Satan was cast from Heaven when there was only heaven in existence, you are going to have problems."

I have said before that Satan's first sin was becoming proud and jealous of God's creation of man and becoming arrogant enough to think he could take the place of God. This lead him to leave the invisible third Heaven and come to Earth against God's will. He then proceeded to enter the dragon to deceive Eve. Satan still had access to the spirit Heaven where God dwells after that, so where is the problem?

Do you understand that "demon" and "devil" are two different names for the same thing? They are also referred to by Christ as "unclean spirits" and He likens casting them out of a human as being equavilent to casting out Satan. This is because they are Satan's angels, that he rules over, in his kingdom.

I haven't yet read what this guy, who you think knows it all, has said; but if he is teaching that God made a world on Earth before Adam with creatures that had to be destroyed in some way, then I declare him a false teacher. Is God ashamed to tell us of this botched world of his? Sounds like another deception from Satan to me.

P.S. Demons, devils, unclean spirits are bad angels (spirit beings).

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] You seem to be saying that before God created this Earth, He created some other physical world with creatures having physical bodies and they disobeyed God and He punished them by taking away their bodies, but allowed their souls or spirits to roam around freely, so that when mankind was created they could inhabit other physical bodies of their choic don't know yet why the hogs rushed down into the sea when they became demon possessed.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

(Genesis 2:1-4 NASB)

The above sums up the creation period in Genesis 1 then it goes on to give furture details and there are no mention of any other physical world being created or that there is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. It appears to me that God would have let Moses know about this gap and this pre-Adamic world if it was in there and it would have been reported in the details that followed Genesis 2:4.

I see no need for a gap or a pre-Adamic world to explain anything.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I haven't looked at your links yet, but I will do it. However, I would like to correct one thing you think I believe, first. You said, "I think when you begin to surmise that Satan's first sin was to tempt Eve you are going to have biblical problems. I think when you surmise that Satan was cast from Heaven when there was [b]only heaven in existence, yo e.

P.S. Demons, devils, unclean spirits are bad angels (spirit beings).[/b]

Praise the Lord Jesus !

I haven't looked at your links yet, but I will do it. However, I would like to correct one thing you think I believe, first. You said, "I think when you begin to surmise that Satan's first sin was to tempt Eve you are going to have biblical problems. I think when you surmise that Satan was cast from Heaven when there was only heaven in existence, you are going to have problems."

I have said before that Satan's first sin was becoming proud and jealous of God's creation of man and becoming arrogant enough to think he could take the place of God. This lead him to leave the invisible third Heaven and come to Earth against God's will. He then proceeded to enter the dragon to deceive Eve. Satan still had access to the spirit Heaven where God dwells after that, so where is the problem?

Okay. You are clarified.
And the link is no mandatory. You don't have to go there is you'd rather not.
I'll comment little latter.

Do you understand that "demon" and "devil" are two different names for the same thing?

In the original language it is an error for the KJV to translate demons as "devils". The word for devil is not found in the plural in the Bible.

The phrase [ho diabolis], the Devil, has no corresponding plural occurence. Devil and demon are not synonomous. You have "the Devil" and you have plural daimonia - "demons". That is a different word. The general confusion about the erroneous term "devils" [plural] was introduced by the King James Version. Its continuation is in the Revised Version notwithstanding the protest from the American Committee.

Concerning the contrasting words Devil and demons word "demons" G.H. Pember writes:

"Whenever, therefore, we meet the plural in English Testament, we may be sure that the Greek is [DIAMONIA], which ought to be rendered "demons."

They are also referred to by Christ as "unclean spirits" and He likens casting them out of a human as being equavilent to casting out Satan.

That is only because they are a part of Satan's hierarchical system. This system owes its existence not to Satan but to God. It was a good structure at that time. When Satan revolted he took the system with him.

Both the evil angels and the unclean spirits are a part of Satan's intricate system and effectively represent him. So the phrase "If Satan casts out Satan, how can his kingdom stand" refers not to just Satan himself but all the evil underlings in his heirarchy which effectively represent Satan himself.

I haven't yet read what this guy, who you think knows it all,

There is no reason to take a sarcastic attitude. If I meant that Derek Prince knew it all then I would have said so. If I thought he said nothing questionable than I would not have said that I wanted to take time to review the link.

You do not have to listen to the Derek Prince message. I think the loss could be yours. I am confident in what I have learned without the link.

has said; but if he is teaching that God made a world on Earth before Adam with creatures that had to be destroyed in some way, then I declare him a false teacher. Is God ashamed to tell us of this botched world of his? Sounds like another deception from Satan to me.

You can stop discussing and turn to just making declarations and assertions whenever you want. I thought we were having discussion and fellowship about interpretations and which are better.

If you would rather stop examining the Scriptures the way I think a Berean would do nobly, and just make declarations of "FALSE TEACHER!" that is your perogative.

P.S. Demons, devils, unclean spirits are bad angels (spirit beings).

So I will count this as your intention to stop comparing Bible passages reasonably and just sticking with what you believe.

Fine. Maybe Kelly Jay or someone else would like to hear more.
Stick by your guns brother. However, your reasons didn't persuade me to regard angels as demons or reject a pre-adamic world and age.

Jesus is Lord of all. On that we concur. Amen.

Originally posted by RJHinds

P.S. Demons, devils, unclean spirits are bad angels (spirit beings).[/b]

Hallelujuh for the Victorious Christ over all His foes, whether demons or evil angels.

P.S. Demons, devils, unclean spirits are bad angels (spirit beings).

Do you think you proved that ? Sorry. I don't think you proved that. You tried though. Get a English / Greek Interlinear and check everywhere the KJV says "devils" and see if it is the same Greek word for THE Devil (singular) or whether it is another word.

Originally posted by jaywill
Hallelujuh for the Victorious Christ over all His foes, whether demons or evil angels.

P.S. Demons, devils, unclean spirits are bad angels (spirit beings).

Do you think you proved that ? Sorry. I don't think you proved that. You tried though. Get a English / Greek Interlinear and check everywhere the KJV says "devils" and see if it is the same Greek word for THE Devil (singular) or whether it is another word.

Well, a cow is singular and cows or cattle is plural.
A goose is singular and geese is plural.
A mouse is singular and mice is plural.
If a devil is singular and demons is plural, so what?
So what if good grammar is not used in this case?
It doesn't change the fact that they are the evil spirit beings that we all refer to as fallen angels does it?

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by jaywill
Praise the Lord Jesus !

[quote]I haven't looked at your links yet, but I will do it. However, I would like to correct one thing you think I believe, first. You said, "I think when you begin to surmise that Satan's first sin was to tempt Eve you are going to have biblical problems. I think when you surmise that Satan was cast from Heaven when there was on ...[text shortened]... d age.

Jesus is Lord of all. On that we concur. Amen.

Christ said in a parable, “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" (Matt. 25:41 NKJV)

We know form other verses I have quoted you that Satan the devil is prince and ruler of the demons. Satan's kingdom includes Satan the devil and a third of the heavenly angels, who sinned against God. Can't we reasonably conclude that these bad angels are also called demons.

"And behold, they [demons] cried out, saying, ... Have You come here BEFORE THE TIME to torment us ? (Matt. 8:29)

[b]The above is a quote of scripture from you. These demon angels are referring to the torment they will receive when they are thrown into the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" as quoted by me above.

I listened to the preacher on your video and went to sleep part way through it. Being an old man, it is difficult for me to stay awake during a 4-hour lecture. However, I did not hear him say anything about a pre-Adamic world on Earth or a gap while I was awake. I don't have the time to listen to it again at this time.

May God bless you.
HaleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, a cow is singular and cows or cattle is plural.
A goose is singular and geese is plural.
A mouse is singular and mice is plural.
If a devil is singular and demons is plural, so what?
So what if good grammar is not used in this case?
It doesn't change the fact that they are the evil spirit beings that we all refer to as fallen angels does it?

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Your logic is faulty. It goes like this:

1.) Demons are spirits.

2.) Angels are spirits.

3.) Therefore angels are demons.

That's like saying

1.) Cows are mammals

2.) Humans are mammals

3.) Therefore cows are humans

It is a logical fallacy.


Here is a passage that proves that demons and spirits can be interchangeable -

1.) "When the evening fell, they brought to Him many who were demon possessed, and He cast out the spirits with a word ..." (Matt. 8:16)

Here is a passage that proves that angels and spirits can be interchangeable -

2.) "But to which of the angels has He ever said ... Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits, ..." (Hebrews 1:13,14)


Now you provide me a verse which clearly shows demons can be used interchangeably with "angels".

If you cannot provide such a verse, I see no reason that I have to accept your logic:


1.) Demons are spirits.

2.) Angels are spirits.

3.) Therefore angels are demons and demons are angels.


The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

Originally posted by jaywill
Your logic is faulty. It goes like this:

1.) Demons are spirits.

2.) Angels are spirits.

3.) Therefore angels are demons.

That's like saying

1.) Cows are mammals

2.) Humans are mammals

3.) Therefore cows are humans

It is a logical fallacy.


Here is a passage that proves that [b]demons and spirits can be ...[text shortened]... n angels and demons that is similar to your idea.

http://www.sherryshriner.com/fallen_angels.htm

[/b]
1.) All Angels are spirits.

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”
(Hebrews 1:6-7 NKJV)

But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
(Hebrews 1:13-14 NKJV)


2.) Satan the devil has angels

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
(Matthew 25:41 NKJV)


3.) Demons are spirits.

And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!” For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.

Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?”

And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.
(Luke 8:27-31 NKJV)

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(Revelation 16:13-14 NKJV)

These demon spirits are coming from Satan the dragon. This does not mean that frogs are demons or that demons live in water like frogs!


4.) Therefore Satan's angels are demons and demons are Satan's angels.
Satan is ruler of the demons. So we could easily replace the angels in the following verse with demons.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his demons:
(Matthew 25:41 NKJV)

P.S. I found these views of demons on the web:

http://www.truthnet.org/Spiritual-warfare/3AngelsDemons/Angels-Demons.htm

The following is a more speculative idea about the difference between fallen angels and demons that is similar to your idea without a gap theory.

http://www.sherryshriner.com/fallen_angels.htm

Originally posted by RJHinds

1.) All Angels are spirits.

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”
(Hebrews 1:6-7 NKJV)

But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“Sit at My right s similar to your idea without a gap theory.

http://www.sherryshriner.com/fallen_angels.htm[/b]

Praise the glorious Lord Jesus for His grace and mercy.

RJ, After carefully reading your post I cannot find ANYTHING like a passage which clearly shows the New Testament used angels and demons in an interchangeable way.

I notice that you seemed to be trying to QUOTE the New King James Version (NKJV) . But you were not consistent.

In "quoting" Matthew 25:41 (NKJV) first you wrote:

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
(Matthew 25:41 NKJV)

Then the second time, supposedly "quoting" the same version, you wrote:

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his demons:
(Matthew 25:41 NKJV)

[/b]

Concerning this I would say:

1.) When I look up the verse online this is what the NKJV has for (Matthew 25:41)

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

2.) Your second "quote" is therefore wrong. And this error reflects either sloppiness or dishonesty. I would like to give you the benefit of a doubt, that you simply were over eager and made a sloppy mistake.

3.) I see no sidebar, footenote, or note of any kind in the NKJV that some ancient manuscripts have demons there instead of angels.

Now as I research I notce in the Parellel Translations Shows only one 2007 New Living Translation which may rescue you from some emabarressment. It alone among all other English versions I can find says -

"Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.

However, I wager that this is a PARAPHASE and not a strict translation. This is like Good News For Modern Man, J B Phillips , The Living Bible. Paraphase Bibles like this are NEVER my first choice for knowing what the New Testament says.

I would only consult a loose paraphrase version AFTER finding out what a stricter Greek to English or Hebrew to English version had. My first choices are usually: Recovery Version then either 1901 American Standard or J N Darby New Translation or Young's Literal.

So I have to leave off discussion now temporarily. But your post certainly did not rise to the challenge of proving any passage where angels and demons could be used interchangeably by the language of the NT.

Now, I recognize the "FROGS" as SYMBOLIC in Revelation 16.
It is simply SYMBOLISM. So you had no point there that was a benefit to me.

Now, unfotunately I have to run an errand. But when I return I will search to see if there is ANY POSSIBLE Greek language ancient text which justifies the loose paraphrase of your Living Translation of "demon" in its Matthew 25:41)

Christ is Lord.

One more thing. Discussions of demons and angels as different MINUS a Gap interpretation would not be a surprise to me. One thing at a time, as YOU YOURSELF requested. Remember ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Praise the glorious Lord Jesus for His grace and mercy.

RJ, After carefully reading your post I cannot find ANYTHING like a passage which clearly shows the New Testament used [b]angels and demons in an interchangeable way.

I notice that you seemed to be trying to QUOTE the New King James Version (NKJV) . But you were not cons not be a surprise to me. One thing at a time, as YOU YOURSELF requested. Remember ?[/b]

You misunderstand the logic. The final point in logic is derived from the previous points. That is, in logic problems the conclusion is never stated, it is logically deduced from the previous statements. I was simply using point 2 in my conclusion in point 4 to show that Satan's angels, which are unclean or evil spirits, could be replaced by demons, which are unclean or evil spirits. so I repeat:

4.) Therefore Satan's angels are demons and demons are Satan's angels.
Satan is ruler of the demons. So we could easily replace the angels in the following verse with demons.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his demons:
(Matthew 25:41 NKJV)

The orignal text has "angels", but he could have said "demons" as I did because both Satan's angels and Satan's demons are evil or unclean spirits shown from all the other points listed before. The conclusion is for us to state and not for the Holy Bible. That conclusion by logic and reason is that Satan's angels are demons because they both represent spirit beings and not physical beings like you have claimed they are. This is the same logic and reasoning we use to determine that God is a trinity of three persons, even though that conclusion is never stated in the Holy Bible. So if you are going to throw out this logic, you might as well throw out the trinity doctrine, like the Jehovah's Witnesses do.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You misunderstand the logic. The final point in logic is derived from the previous points. That is, in logic problems the conclusion is never stated, it is logically deduced from the previous statements. I was simply using point 2 in my conclusion in point 4 to show that Satan's angels, which are unclean or evil spirits, could be replaced by demons, which ou might as well throw out the trinity doctrine, like the Jehovah's Witnesses do.[/b]

You misunderstand the logic. The final point in logic is derived from the previous points.

Whenever you paraphrase the Holy Bible, and supply a word which is not in the text, it is better to use brackets, like this [paraphrase]. Then you should have done this:

"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels [demons]"

That let's there reader differentiate between the translation and your supplied word which is your interpretation of what you think is meant, in your opinion.

This is what you did, which I regard as changing the text of the Bible, something we should always avoid:

"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons"
(NKJV)

That is misleading. The New King James Version DOES NOT write that. That is you changing to Bible. You can change it to say anything you want. But that is you adding to the word of God or taking away from the word of God.

I don't usually use English paraphrases that do not alert the reader when a English word is being supplied in order to sound better. For example the Recovery Version uses italics in verse 37 to alert the reader that this italicized word is not in the original language, but is supplied by the translator to smooth out the English:

" And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You? "

Then the reader should understand, usually from the preface of the English version, that You is being inserted by the translator so it reads better in English. The more "wooden" translation would be:

"And when have we seen You a stranger and taken in, or naked and have clothed ?

I am not at all impressed that you can simply CHANGE the Bible to mean what you are trying to say it should mean. I think that makes your argument stumble backwards.

That is, in logic problems the conclusion is never stated, it is logically deduced from the previous statements. I was simply using point 2 in my conclusion in point 4 to show that Satan's angels, which are unclean or evil spirits, could be replaced by demons, which are unclean or evil spirits. so I repeat:

Okay. You are using this logic:

1.) Fallen angels are unclean or evil spirits.

2.) Demons are unclean or evil spirits.

3.) Therefore fallen angels are demons and demons are fallen angels.

Then you paraphrase a English Translation and appear to give them credit for your paraphrase by placing " (NKJV) " after your alteration. Well the logic I still hold is fallacious.

And I stil point out that with the exception of the New Living Translation paraphrased which certain shares your opinion of what Matthew 25:41 should be understood to mean, Greek text has daimonia there in that passage.

The argument is very weak. But let us for a moment pretend that there was found a text which actually read "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons". Would that PROVE that fallen angels are demons ? Would that prove that Matthew 25 uses "demons" and "angels" interchangeably ?

This depends on whether angels was used ALSO to indicate the same party going into eternal fire. The only other mention in that section 31-46 are the good angels coming with Jesus Christ:

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory." (v.31)

Unless it is clear that some of those "angels" who are coming with Christ are about to go into the eternal fire, ( and I see no reason why they would), you still simply have a verse saying that eternal punishment has been prepared for the devil "and his demons". That ALSO does not prove that fallen angels are demons. That the eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his demons does not prove that the devil's demons are also fallen angels.

4.) Therefore Satan's angels are demons and demons are Satan's angels.
Satan is ruler of the demons. So we could easily replace the angels in the following verse with demons.

You can "easily replace" in the Bible whatever you like. But it is the text of the Scripture which counts. The more scholarly English translations like Recovery Version would let the reader know if a variant version appeared in some other manuscipt of the Greek text. Sometimes two ancient copies might differ slightly as the NT was copied by scribes thousands of times over the centuries. They often say at the bottom of the page "Some ancient copies read thus and such".

Just "easily" throwing in the word "demons" into the English of Matthew 25:41 means nothing to me. I would be careful not to add to the Lord's words as -

"Every word of God is tried; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He reprove you and you be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:5,6 RcV)

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his demons:
(Matthew 25:41 NKJV)

The orignal text has "angels", but he could have said "demons" as I did because both Satan's angels and Satan's demons are evil or unclean spirits shown from all the other points listed before.

But you are selectively emphasizing the similarities while ignoring the differences.

"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel NOR spirit; but the Pharisees confess BOTH." (Acts 23:8 my emphasis)

" ... We find nothing evil in this man. And what if a spirit has spoken to him, OR an angel?" (Acts 23:9 my emphasis)

Furthermore, I think a difference in bad angels and demons is strongly indicated in Revelation 9:15,16

"And the FOUR angels were released, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year that they might kill the third part of men. And the number of the horsemen was TWO HUNDRED MILLION; I heard the number." (Rev. 9:15,16)

The count of the bad angels is given - "four"
The count of the other killing party is given "two hundred million"

This shows that the two groups are distinct from one another.
Now someone may protest that the calvary is merely two hundred million humans. I agree that the riders are human. But look at the creatures ridden -

" And thus I saw the horses in the vision and those sitting on them, ... and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimestone. By these three plagues the third part of the men were killed, by the fire and the smoke and the brimestone proceeding out of their mouths. For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they harm men.

No horses like this exist. They could be demonic creatures from the extreme occult activity. For we are told that in those days demons working miracles will go out to the kings on the evil earth and their armies:

"For they are the spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited earth to gather them to the war of the great day of God the Almighty." (Rev. 16:14) [/b]

These could be demonic horses resulting from demons working miracles. At any rate there is a distiction between the four angels and the "two hundred million" demonic horses. The demons are not the angels or the angels the demons. Both, however, are bad and involved in the killing of "the third part of men".

Three gourps of beings:

1.) Four angels
2.) Two hundred million demonic horses
3.) Third part of men

The idea that the horses are somehow demonic is reinforced by verse 20 and 21:

"And the rest of the men, who were not killed by these plagues, still did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship the DEMONS and the idols ... And they did not repent of thier murders or of their SORCERIES or of their fornication or of their thefts." (v.20,21)

We know that worshippers of demons are usually rewarded by attacks and damage from those very evil beings they worship. And the fact that is reads that men "STILL did not repent" of their demon worship, suggests that the two hundred million demonic horses are the sovereign judgment upon mankind for demon worship. Yet many still did not repent.

Evil angels also may secure worship from man. That is also a sin of course. But in this chapter only the four angels who are for the killing are specifically mentioned. And they are distinct from the demonic horses actually carrying out the killing.

cont. below

cont. from above

The conclusion is for us to state and not for the Holy Bible.

What the Bible actually states should come first. What did it really SAY ?
Then we make our conclusion based on what God has said.

(Not saying interpretations do not often play a part)

That conclusion by logic and reason is that Satan's angels are demons because they both represent spirit beings and not physical beings like you have claimed they are.

This is not a strong logical argument to me. You are only paying attention to similarities. You are ignoring differences between the two classes of beings.

This is the same logic and reasoning we use to determine that God is a trinity of three persons, even though that conclusion is never stated in the Holy Bible. So if you are going to throw out this logic, you might as well throw out the trinity doctrine, like the Jehovah's Witnesses do.

I will not speak for you. But I believe in the Trinity because I am TOLD that the Son is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. I am explicitly TOLD that in Scripture.

The fact is there. You do not have the fact there that angels are demons and demons are angels. You do have the fact that both are Satan's subjects, both are evil, both are part of the spiritual realm.

That both are part of Satan's kingdom does not make them the same thing.

But I do not think that this matter of demon / fallen angels, is as important as the Father - Son - Holy Spirit being God. I do not place equal importance of the latter with understanding that demons are not fallen angels.

Please do not attempt to make the two arguments have equal importance here.