11 Jun 12
Originally posted by RJHindsJesus is God. Praise the Lord.
You seem to be getting amnesia. In answer to your question about what demons were, I wrote, "I think [b]demons are evil spirit beings without physical bodies, like Satan the devil. They are called demons because they like to overcoming the will of humans and possess their bodies to do their evil mischief. I never said they did not have their own spirit ...[text shortened]... God created spirit creatures, like angels, without any kind of body. Is that what you think?[/b]
You seem to be getting amnesia. In answer to your question about what demons were, I wrote, "I think demons are evil spirit beings without physical bodies, like Satan the devil. They are called demons because they like to overcoming the will of humans and possess their bodies to do their evil mischief. I never said they did not have their own spiritual bodies.
I don't recall reading that sentence.
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Christ only has a spiritual body now. As Christians, we believe Christ has both a spiritual and a physical body, because we believe Christ if fully God and fully man. At least, that is my understanding of what Christians believe about Christ. Do you have a different understanding?
You seem to be suggesting that God created spirit creatures, like angels, without any kind of body. Is that what you think?
I want to keep the matter of Christ's incarnation and the demons and angels somewhat separate.
The demons are presently separated from physical bodies which they had in some pre-Adamic world. The are the dead dicribed in Revelation 20:13 .
"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; ... And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, acccording to their works."
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gavee up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, accoding to their works." (Rev. 20:12,13)
1.) The dead human beings are separated from their physical bodies.
2.) The immaterial part of these dead humans is kept in Hades.
3.) It is redundant for the Scripture to mention the SEA giving up the dead and death and Hades giving up the dead. This is because any dead humans have thier soul and spirit kept in Hades.
Drowned sailors, drowned sea going humans would have thier soul and spirit in Hades along with all other humans who have died. Regardless of how humans die, whether by drowning in sea water or otherwise, their souls are now in Hades.
4.) Therefore the dead associated with the sea are the dead from another class of beings.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it ..."
5.) These dead are the disembodied evil spirits who are the demons. They rebelliously wander in waterless places seeking to possess human bodies since they do not have their own any more.
6.) These demons also appear before the great white throne of God to be judged.
It is significant that the holding place of departed humans is no more needed after the last judgement. So death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire -
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:14)
In parallel the holding place for the demons, the dead given up by the sea, is also no longer needed. So the sea is discarded -
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more." (Rev. 21:1)
These two prisons, one for humans and one for the demons, are no longer needed for the dead are emptied out of them. Death and Hades are no more. And the sea as the watery place from which demons rebelliously wander, is no more.
In Revelation 16:13 demons are symbolized by FROGS.
"And I saw, out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits as frogs; For they are the spirits of demons ..."
The amphibious animal, the frog, is used to symbolize demons perhaps because the frog lives partly in the water and partly on the land. The demons come up out of the water of judgment to which they have been assigned. And they wander about in waterless places seeking to take possession of fallen and sinful human beings.
Perhaps for this reason frogs are used to indicate demons. They were something else in a pre-Adamic earth. And I do not know WHAT they were. But they must have been intelligent. And they followed the Daystar in his revolt against God.
12 Jun 12
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Originally posted by jaywillYou - "I don't recall reading that sentence."
Jesus is God. Praise the Lord.
[quote] You seem to be getting amnesia. In answer to your question about what demons were, I wrote, "I think demons are evil spirit beings without physical bodies, like Satan the devil. They are called demons because they like to overcoming the will of humans and possess their bodies to do their evil mischief. I never said t have been intelligent. And they followed the Daystar in his revolt against God.
It was the 5th post on page 4.
The demons are not dead. Demons are spirit beings; they never had physical bodies of their own. One third of all the angels followed Lucifer in his rebellion, and were cast down to the earth with him! (Compare Rev. 12:4 with Rev. 1:20.) These fallen angels are spirit beings! To accomplish his Work of deception, Satan utilizes these millions of disobedient spirits! Satan is called the Prince of demons (Matt. 12:24). He entered Personnaly into Judas! (John 13:27.) I believe the "waterless" places refers to the two heavens, the sky and outer space. For Satan is also referred to as "the prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2.
Revelation 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The above is the second resurrection and Judgement of the dead (humans) after the 1,000 year reign of Christ and after Satan and his demons are defeated and thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. The dead are humans not demons. Satan and his demons have already been judged. Jesus said He is going to cast unrepentant, carnal-minded humans into "everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS" (Matt. 25:41). So they are already judged. The sea is spoken of only to include those people buried at sea instead of in the earth.
12 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsPriase and glory to our victorious Lord Jesus. Amen.
You - "I don't recall reading that sentence."
[b]It was the 5th post on page 4.
The demons are not dead. Demons are spirit beings; they never had physical bodies of their own. One third of all the angels followed Lucifer in his rebellion, and were cast down to the earth with him! (Compare Rev. 12:4 with Rev. 1:20.) These fallen angels are spirit he sea is spoken of only to include those people buried at sea instead of in the earth.[/b]
Jesus is Lord.
It was the 5th post on page 4.
Thanks. I missed it
The demons are not dead.
I believe that the demons are the dead given up by the sea as distinct to the dead humans who are given up by Death and Hades.
In this case death would mean separation of their being's complete parts.
Demons are spirit beings; they never had physical bodies of their own.
I think this is wrong. The craving of the demons is to regain that part that they lost when God judged that unknown pre-adamic world.
Some of the more heinious demons are released from the abyss in the 5th trumpet of Revelation 9. Why they are separated I do not know. But the discription of those demonic locust creatures seems to suggest that they have retained physical bodies.
"And they had tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to harm men for five months." (v.10)
"And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that theyu should be tormented five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man ... And the locusts were like horses prepared for war ... and on their heads there were as it were crowns like gold ..." (See Rev. 9)
Why these demons are apart from others, I do not know. But they are unleashed at the end of days. They seem to have physical aspects. For sure they are not of this creation. They probably were left over from the corrupted and judged pre-adamic creation.
But if I am wrong about the demons in Revelation 9 I am still persuaded that the dead given up by the sea, who are distinct from "the dead" given up by Hades in Revelation 20, are disembodied dead creatures who are todays demons.
One third of all the angels followed Lucifer in his rebellion, and were cast down to the earth with him! (Compare Rev. 12:4 with Rev. 1:20.)
I think you have some confusion about the sequence.
Revelation 12:4 does show the Satan deceived one third of the angels. This does not happen in the great tribulation. They were decieved a long long time ago. They have followed Satan for a long long time.
The casting of Satan and his angels to the earth is an event marking the beginning of the short time of "a thousand two hundred and sixty days" of persecution of the woman's seed not raptured.
It is a mistake to regard Revelation 12:9 as something that has already occured. For the event of Satan and his angels being cast down here marks the beginning of the last three and one half years of the church age.
This is proved by what is said immediately after the rejoicing over the raptured Manchild - "Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. WOE to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12)
That short time is the 1,260 days, or three and one half years, or "a time and times and half a time". That means a year plus two years plus half a year. See Rev. 12:14; 13:5 - "forty two months"; 11:2 - "forty two months"[/b].
Though it is true that through all the ages since Adam Satan has been causing trouble on the earth, the expulsion mentioned in Revelation 12:9,12 is a further punishment and limitation. And it specifically marks the commencement of the last three and one half years of this age before the descent of Christ in glory.
Satan's walking up and down making trouble in the book of Job occurs before this expulsion of Revelation 12:9,12.
All of the persecution from Satan against God's people since Adam, all of his murders, flaming darts, accusations, and oppositions against Israel and the church have all occured before the expulsion of Revelation 12:9,12 when the Manchild is raptured.
This final casting down of Satan in Rev. 12:7-9 marks the most intense time of Satan's troubling the earth -
"Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12)
These fallen angels are spirit beings! To accomplish his Work of deception, Satan utilizes these millions of disobedient spirits!
The evil spirits known as demons are distinct from the angels who followed Satan. The demons are the spirits of physical beings who followed Satan along with the rebellious angels.
The Pharisees' sometimes were able to cast out demons. And they recognized that apart from the angels there were other spirits:
Acts 23:9 - "And there was a great outcry; and some of the scribes of the Pharisees' party roe up and contended, saying [of the apostle Paul] We find nothing ebil in this man. And what if a spirit has spoken to him, or an angel?"
The phrase "... a spirit has spoken to him, OR AN ANGEL" indicates that they recognized that apart from angels other spiritual beings existed. They may not have been veru clear on how deceptive the fallen angels and the demons can be. But they did see a difference between angels and other spirits.
This second classs of evil spiritual beings are always attempting to inhabit the bodies of sinners who give them the ground to do so. The Bible speaks of demon possession. Not much is there that I can see about "angel possession". For sure, BOTH fallen angels and demons are bad.
I think your understanding blurs the difference between the two kinds of created beings. You see that both followed Satan. But aside from that I think your explanation is not clear.
If you disagree you could explain why in Heaven God has these TWO kinds of spirit beings ?
In creation we see the angels singing. But we see no other kind of spiritual being doing so:
"When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7) as God prepares the earth according to Genesis 1.
If there were other spiritual beings beside angels shouldn't it be the case that a portion of the should be left in Heaven too ? But we only see "angels" by huge numbers left to rejoice in heaven -
"And I saw, and I heard the voice of MANY ANGELS around the throne and of the living creatrure [ four of them ] and of the elders, and their number was ten thousands of ten thousands and thousands of thousands..." (Rev. 5:11)
If you understand God created angels and other spirit beings, and some of them followed Satan, it stands to reason that the ones left would be mentioned. We see only angels my the myriads left faithful and praising God.
The elders there are the elders of creation - the first angelic beings that God created.
This might be over technical. But I don't think the four living creatures are those beings. The other evil spirit beings are disembodied ones craving to take possession of men's bodies to substitute their own.
Satan is called the Prince of demons (Matt. 12:24). He entered Personnaly into Judas! (John 13:27.) I believe the "waterless" places refers to the two heavens, the sky and outer space. For Satan is also referred to as "the prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2.
That is an interesting thought. For it certainly is true that the word speaks of "the ruler of the authority of the air". But since when is the sky "waterless" ? And Matthew 12 said that the demons wander in waterless places I don't think Christ meant that they go to wander in outer space. There are no people in outer space for them to possess.
"When the unclean spirit goes out from the man, it roams through waterless places, seeking rest, and does not find it. Then it saus, I will return to mu house from which I came out." (12:43,44) [/b]
I don't think a demon leaves a man and goes to wander in outer space. The waterless places must be on the earth. I don't think the demon returns from outer space when he says "I will return to my house ...".
By the way, Satan being "the ruler of the authority of the air" shows that he presently has that realm BEFORE he is so limited in being cast to the earth in the last 1,260 days of (Rev. 12:6). It shows that before "the devil has come down to you and has great rage" (v.12) he already being in the vicinity of the earth causing trouble.
Therefore the casting down of Satan three and one half years before the millennial kingdom is a further limitation of his measured freedom. Presently, as in the time of Job he can still appear as an accuser before God in heaven.
Revelation 20:12-15
.......
The above is the second resurrection and Judgement of the dead (humans) after the 1,000 year reign of Christ and after Satan and his demons are defeated and thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.
I understand that. And the dead given up by the sea, aside from the dead given up by Hades, are the demons to be judged. It should have been sufficient for the Apostle John to mention ALL dead humans in connection with Hades. He did not do that though.
The dead are humans not demons. Satan and his demons have already been judged.
They are not yet sent to their place of torment. For "the time" has not come. Here at the great white throne "the time" has come:
"And behold, they [demons] cried out, saying, ... Have You come here BEFORE THE TIME to torment us ? (Matt. 8:29)
I think THE TIME for them to be tormented is when they are finally yielded up by the sea to appear...
12 Jun 12
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cont. from above.
Glory and Thanks to the Lord Jesus. Praise the Lord.
The dead are humans not demons. Satan and his demons have already been judged.
They are not yet sent to their place of torment. For "the time" has not come. Here at the great white throne "the time" has come:
"And behold, they [demons] cried out, saying, ... Have You come here BEFORE THE TIME to torment us ? (Matt. 8:29)
I think THE TIME for them to be tormented is when they are finally yielded up by the sea to appear with the dead lost from Hades, before the great white throne. I cannot pinpoint any other time before this that would qualify as the time for them to be tormented.
In Matthew 25:41, before the millennium, the eternal fire is "prepared for the devil and his angels" . This means that they are not YET in there. It has only by this time been "prepared" .
Now we are not told everything. But I think the demons go into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels at the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20.
Notice also that Jesus did not say that the fire was prepared for the devil and human sinners. And he did not say the devil and his demons. Man and Demons co-partake of the terrible judgment because they followed the devil and his angels.
The demons were inhabitants of the earth that followed the devil and his angels. They were not human. I don't know what they were.
Jesus said He is going to cast unrepentant, carnal-minded humans into "everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS" (Matt. 25:41). So they are already judged. The sea is spoken of only to include those people buried at sea instead of in the earth.
The passage reads - "Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire PREPARED ... for the devil and his angels" . Since it is only PREPARED I think the understanding should be that they are not yet there by that time.
This judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is not the judgment of the great white throne AFTER the millennium, by the way. I am not sure if you catch that. This judgment of Christ's throne of glory is for the living nations who are alive when He comes back. And that is BEFORE the 1,000 years. This is a judgment of the living nations on earth when Christ comes back.
The judgment of Revelation 20 is AFTER the 1,000 years. So these are two different judgments. Christ is the judge of the living and the dead. But He is not necessarily thier judge all at one time.
12 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillI think you are the one confused. Revelation 12:4 refers to the birth of Christ and is before the great tribulation, of course. However, I said to compare Rev. 1:20 with 12:4 only to show that the stars represent angels and that Satan, the great red dragon, controlled a third of them, now called "demons". These "demon" spirit creatures have left the third heaven to enter the visible heavens and the Earth. However, they remain heavenly spirit beings, who are now inhabiting the heavens around the Earth. Thus, Satan is called "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. Satan is also referred to as the prince or ruler of this world (John 12:31) and prince or ruler of the demons (Matthew 12:24-28; Mark 3:22-30; Luke 11:15,17-20).
Priase and glory to our victorious Lord Jesus. Amen.
Jesus is Lord.
It was the 5th post on page 4.
Thanks. I missed it
The demons are not dead.
I believe that the demons are [b]the dead given up by the sea as distinct to the dead humans who are given up by Death and Hades.
In this case death[/b ...[text shortened]... elded up by the sea to appear...
Where in the Holy Bible does it say there was an "unknown pre-adamic world"? I think you are making things up.
12 Jun 12
7 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]"And behold, they [demons] cried out, saying, ... Have You come here BEFORE THE TIME to torment us ? (Matt. 8:29)
cont. from above.
Glory and Thanks to the Lord Jesus. Praise the Lord.
The dead are humans not demons. Satan and his demons have already been judged.
They are not yet sent to their place of torment. For [b]"the time" has not come. Here at the great white throne "the time" has come:
"And behold, they [demons] f the living and the dead. But He is not necessarily thier judge all at one time.
These demons can not be the dead for the dead must be raised at the two resurrections of the dead and then judged to determine their fate. The fate of Satan, the devil, and his demon angels has already been determined. They can not be raised from the dead because they are spirit beings.
In Matthew 25:41, before the millennium, the eternal fire is "prepared for the devil and his angels" . This means that they are not YET in there. It has only by this time been "prepared" .
It stands to reason that the demons go into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels at about the same time that Satan does because they are all fallen angels, who have sinned against God. They do not need to be raised from the dead to be judged according to their deeds to determine their fate as do human souls.
Yes, I understand that the Great White Throne Judgement is after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the Earth. The first judgement includes not only those still remaing alive at Christ's coming but also those souls beheaded during the tribulation who are raised in the first resurrection to reign with Christ for the 1,000 years.
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(Revelation 20:4-6 NKJV)
See, those dead raised at the first resurrection will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead, Adam and Eve and those that followed that were not beheaded for believing in Christ will be raised at the second resurrection and be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement.
P.S. Demons are not souls of the dead. Demons are spirit beings (fallen angels) who follow and who are ruled by Satan, the devil. Remember, Christ likens His casting out of demons as casting out Satan.
12 Jun 12
5 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsPraise our Lord Jesus. We know that though we see in part and prophesy in part He cannot be defeated. We can thank the Lord for His victory.
I think you are the one confused. Revelation 12:4 refers to the birth of Christ and is before the great tribulation, of course. However, I said to compare Rev. 1:20 with 12:4 only to show that the stars represent angels and that Satan, the great red dragon, controlled a third of them, now called "demons". These "demon" spirit creatures have left the thir does it say there was an "unknown pre-adamic world"? I think you are making things up.
I think you are the one confused. Revelation 12:4 refers to the birth of Christ and is before the great tribulation, of course.
You may believe that. I do not believe it is Christ's birth THOUGH the event is before the great tribulation.
I expounded on the woman with her manchild in the thread of Revelation 12.
In that Christ is wrought into, one with, and worked into the personalities of the corporate THEY who have overcome, that child is Christ.
"Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accuses THEM before our God day and night.
And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death." (v.10)
The plural pronouns "THEM, THEY, THEIR" refer to the raptured Manchild. This proves that the manchild is a collective. It is Christ only in the sense that Christ has been worked into them through transformation of sanctification.
1.) Jesus was not raptured to the third heavens when he was born.
2.) The birth of Jesus was not followed by either Israel or Mary fleeing before the dragon for 1260 days.
Mary and Joseph did go to Egypt for two years. But the Woman in the vision should not be Mary. Only those who worship Mary in Catholic Maryolotry would consider that such a splendid vision would refer to Mary the so-called "Mother of God" or the "Queen of the Apostles".
So I reject that the manchild born and raptured to the third heavens and to God's throne is the baby Jesus.
For certain Jesus did ascend to Heaven after His resurrection. But that was as a man and not a baby. This rapture of the manchild is a resurrection and rapture of a corporate "THEM,THEY" from the whole Body of God's people. This is an early rapture the results of which trigger the expulsion of Satan from appearing in heaven to accuse God's people. And immediatly after that casting down there is the "short time" of the last three and one half years of the age before the second coming of Christ.
The manchild is not the individual baby Jesus. The teachers teaching this way are mistaken, I believe.
However, I said to compare Rev. 1:20 with 12:4 only to show that the stars represent angels and that Satan, the great red dragon, controlled a third of them, now called "demons".
I did not comment on Revelation 1:20.
"The mystery of the seven stars which you saw upon My right hand and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches." (Rev. 1:20)
I agree that the stars of Revelation 12:4 would represent heavenly angels.
But an angel is also a messenger. And the stars which form the crown of the over the woman's are human "stars". They represent the partriarchs before the age of the law of Moses. Now the 11 human brothers of Joseph we seen in his visions as 11 "stars" in Genesis 37:9 .
Based upon the fact that elect saints of God, as humans, can be depicted as stars (ie. Gen 37:9), the stars as messengers or angels of the seven churches do not have to be heavenly beings. And I don't think that those stars held in the hand of the Son of Man represent heavenly angels of the churches. Rather I believe they represent faithful, cooperative responsibly ones in the local churches, bearing the burden for "the testimony of Jesus".
The letters are to the churches via the messengers. I don't think Christ is sending letters to heavenly angels. He is sending letters to the churches and especially to the overcomers and responsible saints in the churches.
Bottom line - stars as heavenly angels in Rev 12:4 does not insist that stars everywhere else are heavenly beings.
The negative and wandering stars of Jude 13 are human.
"Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shames; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of darkness is kept for eternity."
The positive stars who lead many to righteousness in Daniel 12:3 are also righteous humans leading many to salvation:
"And those who turn many to righteousness, [will shine] like the stars, forever and ever." (Dan. 12:3)
I count the stars swept to the earth by the dragons tail to represent deceived angels. I do not count the stars as the crown of the Universal Bright Woman or the stars in the hand of the Son of Man to be heavenly beings, but earthly and faithful saints of God (comp Gen 37:9 ;Dan.12:3 ).
And there are spirits who are distinct from angels -
" We find no evil in this man [Paul]. And what if a spirit has spoken to him, OR AN ANGEL ?" (Acts 23:9)
These "demon" spirit creatures have left the third heaven to enter the visible heavens and the Earth.
The stars that are swept by the dragons tail must also be the angels who are cast out of heaven for following Satan. In verse 7 merely says that the devil and his ANGELS warred -
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels." (v.7) It does not say the devil warred "and his demons". Nor does it say the devil warred "and his angels and demons". Nor does it say the Michael and his angels and other spirits went to war. It is simply "Michael and his angels".
We do have the opposing demons mentioned in Revelation 16:13. But there the demons are symbolized not as stars but FROGS. The stars from from heaven. The FROGS come from the WATER yet also come up onto the land.
The devil's angels are not demons. However both the devil's angels and the devil's demons are deceived and follow the devil to oppose God and damage man.
However, they remain heavenly spirit beings, who are now inhabiting the heavens around the Earth. Thus, Satan is called "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. Satan is also referred to as the prince or ruler of this world (John 12:31) and prince or ruler of the demons (Matthew 12:24-28; Mark 3:22-30; Luke 11:15,17-20).
Now we are each repeating over again things each of us have explained. I see no need to do this. I understand your view but hold a different one.
You see, to say that Satan is the ruler of demons can be true without the demons being fallen angels. The former truth does not prove the latter idea.
Satan can be ruler of more than just one kind of creature. Right ?
Where in the Holy Bible does it say there was an "unknown pre-adamic world"? I think you are making things up.
The phrase is not in the Bible. Then neither is the word "rapture".
Then neither is the word "Trinity".
Then neither is the phrase "Triune God".
The truth of these matters is in the Bible.
The absence of the phrase "unknown pre-adamic world" does not prove anything.
For length's sake I better stop here. But a pre-adamic age and world in the Bible is only sparsely hinted at. It is not a major tenet of the Christian faith by any means. And we cannot over deduce things about it as some teachers might be prone to do. I think all that I have shared with you is sober and within proper limits of biblical exegesis without being overly extravagant.
We do not know much about this pre-Adamic age. I think we know some things which are related to God's purpose and our eternal salvation.
12 Jun 12
Praise our wonderful Lord Jesus. Our Savior and Lord. Amen
RJH, you have said that you think I am making things up. Well I think that you are enfluenced by some made up things by teachers with some incomplete knowledge of the Scripture.
You know Apollos was fervent and knowledgeable. But Prisca and Aquilla further instructed him. Sometimes we can be further instructed.
12 Jun 12
Rather than each of us repeat ourselves again and again, maybe we should look at the Interval or Gap from another angle. Some Bible teachers vigorously object that there could be any SIN or DEATH in the earth prior to Adam's fall.
It is a point to examine. But I think the pre-Adamic kingdom of the Daystar had to have had sin and probably death too.
Through Adam sin came into the world, and death through sin, says Romans. I think there must be some limitation to "the world" in that passage. The scope of Paul's phrase "the world" , I think, does not insist that sin did not exist in the universe prior to the creation of man.
Scrutinize this. I have thought long upon it. You will probably hold that any sin could have only existed in Heaven before the earth was created ?
12 Jun 12
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Originally posted by jaywillI understand angel means "messenger" but like other words in can have other meanings. Like you said, "angel" can refer to men or spirit creatures as messengers. The pre-incarnate Christ appeared to Moses in the burning bush as the angel of the Lord, a messenger from God. He was even referred to as God. It has also become to refer to all the spirit creatures God created, including Satan. Not only can God's Spirit or Christ's spirit enter into mankind, Satan and his angels (spirit beings) enter into human beings. Satan uses his angels to do it for he did it with Judas as I have pointed out before. Those spirit beings that do this are called "demons". Demons are not the souls of dead humans who enter into other living humans. This is a deception of Satan and comes from so-called spirit mediums and such. Don't be deceived into believing their teachings.
Praise our Lord Jesus. We know that though we see in part and prophesy in part He cannot be defeated. We can thank the Lord for His victory.
I think you are the one confused. Revelation 12:4 refers to the birth of Christ and is before the great tribulation, of course.
You may believe that. I do not believe it is Christ's birth THOUGH purpose and our eternal salvation.
You must remember Revelation 12 is a vision and is symbolic. It does not refer to the actual history, but to symbolic history. The women does not just refer to Mary, but also to Israel, the wife of God. The Dragon with the 7 heads and crowns does not refer to Satan along, but to his kingdom and the Child does not just refer to the baby Jesus, but to Christ and His church.
When someone says "an angel or a spirit", they do not necessarily mean they are two diffenent types of beings. They can be two different words for the same thing.
There is no evidence for a pre-Adamic age in the Holy Bible, so forget it.
12 Jun 12
4 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsPraise the Lord Jesus. We love Christ the Savior, the Lord.
I understand angel means "messenger" but like other words in can have other meanings. Like you said, "angel" can refer to men or spirit creatures as messengers. The pre-incarnate Christ appeared to Moses in the burning bush as the angel of the Lord, a messenger from God. He was even referred to as God. It has also become to refer to all the spirit creatu thing.
There is no evidence for a pre-Adamic age in the Holy Bible, so forget it.
Demons are not the souls of dead humans who enter into other living humans. This is a deception of Satan and comes from so-called spirit mediums and such. Don't be deceived into believing their teachings.
I NEVER said that demons were the souls of DEAD HUMANS. But they do seek to possess the bodies of human sinners.
Now these demons can imitate departed loved ones. They can ramsack the memory of past sinners. And based upon those memories they deceive some people that they are departed loved ones speaking from beyond the grave.
They can possess and deceive that the possessed person is "channeling" or speaking on behalf of some extraterrestial being or long dead great human. In other words the decieving spirits can tell people what they want to hear.
But for the record now, I never said that the beings who are now disembodied, and who seek to demon possess people are humans of the past of any kind.
Talk with you latter.
12 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsPraise the Lord for the Word of God rightly divided.
I understand angel means "messenger" but like other words in can have other meanings. Like you said, "angel" can refer to men or spirit creatures as messengers. The pre-incarnate Christ appeared to Moses in the burning bush as the angel of the Lord, a messenger from God. He was even referred to as God. It has also become to refer to all the spirit creatu thing.
There is no evidence for a pre-Adamic age in the Holy Bible, so forget it.
There is no evidence for a pre-Adamic age in the Holy Bible, so forget it.
Thanks. But there is absolutely no reason why I should forget it.
You see the discarding of the sea in the new heaven and new earth must be a discarding of some remnant of that world that God judged. And that sea is also the first thing we are told about in Genesis 1:2.
"But the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was brooding upon the surface of the waters."
The puzzle pieces fit. Though there are some unknowns.
Now if Satan was cast out of Heaven when there was ONLY Heaven in existence, where was he cast ?
Do you mean that God needed a place to throw him away, so God created the garden of Eden for Adam where he could throw away Satan ?
13 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillI do not see why there must be a pre-Adamic world or age for God to get rid of the sea. There was enough sin in this Adamic world for God to destroy it with fire.
Praise the Lord for the Word of God rightly divided.
There is no evidence for a pre-Adamic age in the Holy Bible, so forget it.
Thanks. But there is absolutely no reason why I should forget it.
You see the discarding of the sea in the new heaven and new earth must be a discarding of some remnant of that world that God judged. ...[text shortened]... o throw him away, so God created the garden of Eden for Adam where he could throw away Satan ?
knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(2Peter 3:3-7, 10-13 NKJV)
I do not think Lucifer sinned against God until the physical heavens and the Earth and mankind was created. This is when lucifer's pride and jealousy turned him into Satan, adversary of God. The Garden of Eden was created for mankind not for Satan.
13 Jun 12
3 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
I do not see why there must be a pre-Adamic world or age for God to get rid of the sea. There was enough sin in this Adamic world for God to destroy it with fire.
knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all thing d him into Satan, adversary of God. The Garden of Eden was created for mankind not for Satan.
I do not think Lucifer sinned against God until the physical heavens and the Earth and mankind was created. This is when lucifer's pride and jealousy turned him into Satan, adversary of God. The Garden of Eden was created for mankind not for Satan.
I might count that as a logical scenario. But I think there is a better one.
How long do you think it was between the time that God created man and Eve had her conversation with the serpent ?
How much time do you think elapsed between Genesis 2: 2:7 - "And Jehovah God formed man with the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul" and Genesis 3:1 - "Now the serpent was more crafty than every other animal of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said to the woman, Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden ? ?
Between these two events how much time would you allocate for a being to amass a crowd of one third of God's angels to mount an assault against the Creator of the whole universe ?
13 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillI can't say.
I do not think Lucifer sinned against God until the physical heavens and the Earth and mankind was created. This is when lucifer's pride and jealousy turned him into Satan, adversary of God. The Garden of Eden was created for mankind not for Satan.
I might count that as a logical scenario. But I think there is a better one.
H ...[text shortened]... f one third of God's angels to mount an assault against the Creator of the whole universe ?