Angels

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
You have proof of course that we translate it exclusively as obeisance with reference to Jesus and worship every where else? No then what are you talking about?

I have a group of related questions for which you want to either think about or engage with me at some point:

To whom do you pray, Jesus of Jehovah?
If Jehovah, then to whom do you give thanks for your salvation (or whatever term you use)?
You have admitted to me that you have 2 saviors Jesus and Jehovah - if you never thank Jesus for his sacrifice which covers your sins, why not?
Finally if you are instructed to do all things including thanks and prayer in the name of Jehovah, then how do you reconcile Colossians 3:17...

"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

When John went to worship the angel the angel rebuked him and told him not to do that. He told him he should worship God.

The Greek there in Revelation 22:9 is the same word for what the angels are commanded to do in Hebrews 1:6.

You have no case.

Originally posted by sonship
When John went to worship the angel the angel rebuked him and told him not to do that. He told him he should worship God.

The Greek there in [b]Revelation 22:9 is the same word for what the angels are commanded to do in Hebrews 1:6.

You have no case.[/b]

Of course, why you think i have no case I have no idea. I have not stated that it cannot be translated as worship making your claim quite ludicrous. All i have stated is that there is no reason why it should be translated as worship in the case of Jesus Christ for as the passage you refer to clearly demonstrates, only God is to be worshiped.

Now what were you slobbering about, something about a case?

New International Version
"At this the servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.'

New Living Translation
"But the man fell down before his master and begged him, 'Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.'

English Standard Version
So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’

New American Standard Bible
"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'

King James Bible
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Can you tell us why in all of these translations very few render the exact same term worship, for either they are using worship in a different way than we understand it in modern times or the word does not mean what you suppose and want it to mean?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Of course, why you think i have no case I have no idea. I have not stated that it cannot be translated as worship making your claim quite ludicrous.

Now what were you slobbering about, something about a case?

Of course, why you think i have no case I have no idea. I have not stated that it cannot be translated as worship making your claim quite ludicrous.

You have no case there on worship there because there is no case to be had.

All i have stated is that there is no reason why it should be translated as worship in the case of Jesus Christ for as the passage you refer to clearly demonstrates, only God is to be worshiped.

So Jesus is God. The angels WORSHIP Him.
And John in Revelation tried to worship the angel who rebuked him and told him to WORSHIP God.

What the angel commanded John to do is what God commanded the angels to do concerning the Firstborn Son.

Titus ... "A factious man ... knowing that such a one is perverted and is sinning, though he is condemned by his own self." (See Titus 3:11)


Other versions -

Holman Christian Standard Bible
knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.

International Standard Version
For you know that a person like this is corrupt and keeps on sinning, being self-condemned.

NET Bible
You know that such a person is twisted by sin and is conscious of it himself.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And be aware that he who is such is perverse and a sinner and is self condemned.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You know that people like this are corrupt. They are sinners condemned by their own actions.

Jubilee Bible 2000
knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of his own judgment.

Originally posted by sonship

Of course, why you think i have no case I have no idea. I have not stated that it cannot be translated as worship making your claim quite ludicrous.

You have no case there on [b]worship there because there is no case to be had.

[quote] All i have stated is that there is no reason why it should be translated as worship in the cas ...[text shortened]... tes, only God is to be worshiped.

Now what were you slobbering about, something about a case?[/b]

lol, is that meant to been taken seriously, bwahahah, its like trash talk Tuesday! You have still provided not a single valid reason why the term should be translated as worship in the case of Jesus Christ and I suspect you have nothing that is why you are slobbering about irrelevancies. I have perverted nothing and I resent your lying insinuations to the contrary. Jesus is not God and there is not a single reference in the entire Bible where he claims to be God, you simply made it up. Neither did the angels worship Jesus. Your act of idolatry is to be noted.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lol, is that meant to been taken seriously, bwahahah, its like trash talk Tuesday! You have still provided not a single valid reason why the term should be translated as worship in the case of Jesus Christ and I suspect you have nothing that is why you are slobbering about irrelevancies. I have perverted nothing and I resent your lying insinuations to the contrary.

Please allow me to give my opinion here, for I have been reading this back and forth debate. It seems crystal clear to me that sonship just proclaimed that Jesus IS God. And, if I am correct....you robbie do NOT believe that Jesus IS God. Isn't this the crux of the 'worship' problem. I am really interested in the debate to WHO Jesus actually is between Christians and Jehovah Witnesses.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

Where did Jesus refuse worship?

Where did He refuse worship (with a rebuke) as the angel refused it in Revelation 22:9 ?

"And he said to me, Do not do that! I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God." (Rev. 22:9)

"And I fell before his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Do not do this. ... Worship God ..." (See Rev. 19:10)

Where is the same kind of rebuke and command from the man Jesus ?

Originally posted by chaney3
Please allow me to give my opinion here, for I have been reading this back and forth debate. It seems crystal clear to me that sonship just proclaimed that Jesus IS God. And, if I am correct....you robbie do NOT believe that Jesus IS God. Isn't this the crux of the 'worship' problem. I am really interested in the debate to WHO Jesus actually is between Christians and Jehovah Witnesses.

As I've said to you before, you will not find the answer here. As someone once famously said ... why do you seek the living among the dead.

Originally posted by chaney3
Please allow me to give my opinion here, for I have been reading this back and forth debate. It seems crystal clear to me that sonship just proclaimed that Jesus IS God. And, if I am correct....you robbie do NOT believe that Jesus IS God. Isn't this the crux of the 'worship' problem. I am really interested in the debate to WHO Jesus actually is between Christians and Jehovah Witnesses.

Yes I shall be quite clear, Sonship in his idolatry believes that Jesus Christ is God Almighty, I profess that he is a created entity, the son of God.

the crux of the matter is not only this, it is the use of corrupt and inaccurate translation (continually used by sonship in full knowledge of the fact) that often leads to confusion. Many times there are texts that are doctored, rendered in an inaccurate way often deceitfully by trinitarians who wish to impose their religious bias on scripture where none exists ion the original. I will often take them to task as I am doing here, to provided a valid and rational basis for their claims. As you can see there is a great discrepancy used with the term that is rendered in relation to Jesus Christ as worship, elsewhere its use is rendered as simply bow down, do obeisance, prostrate oneself etc etc

for example, Revelation 3:9

New International Version
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

New Living Translation
Look, I will force those who belong to Satan's synagogue--those liars who say they are Jews but are not--to come and bow down at your feet. They will acknowledge that you are the ones I love.

English Standard Version
Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you.

New American Standard Bible
Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

You can see that each of these English versions render the text as bow down, fall down at your feet etc etc We are trying to ascertain why in Jesus is a special case and the term suddenly becomes an act of worship, so far we have no evidence just some trash talk.

Originally posted by sonship
Where did Jesus refuse worship?

Where did He refuse worship (with a rebuke) as the angel refused it in [b]Revelation 22:9 ?

"And he said to me, Do not do that! I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God." (Rev. 22:9)

[ ...[text shortened]... e Rev. 19:10) [/b] [/quote]

Where is the same kind of rebuke and command from the man Jesus ?[/b]

you have been asked to provide a valid reason why at Mattew 18:26 and Revelation 3:9 is the term rendered simply as bow down, prostrate oneself, etc etc whereas it takes on a special significance in the case of Jesus and becomes an act of worship, so far we have had,

1. because that it what it means because joseph (who knows practically nothing) says so
2. because its rendered as worship in a passage where John is warned not to worship an angel - sonship
3.various trash talk from sonship.

Originally posted by divegeester
As I've said to you before, you will not find the answer here. As someone once famously said ... why do you seek the living among the dead.

Divegeester, you have recently said a few things that have you appearing as a full blown Agnostic now. Forget about the God/Jesus debate, you now have doubts about God Himself, it seems. And for what it's worth, I have every right to participate in these discussions to seek ANY information that I can get here. You never know, maybe I will be able to come away with something useful?? It's possible. 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
As I've said to you before, you will not find the answer here. As someone once famously said ... why do you seek the living among the dead.

The answer is that Jesus is God and Jesus is a man.

And if you confess Lord Jesus you are in the Holy Spirit and will touch the life of God.

No one can say "Lord Jesus" except in the Holy Spirit.

First Corinthians 12:3

King James Bible
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
For this reason I want you to be aware that no one who is speaking by God's Spirit can say, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

And for Robbie to say that to worship Jesus is to worship an idol is blasphemy. And I don't care how much he resents it. He is definitely not in the Holy Spirit to say the Son of God is an idol.

Originally posted by sonship
The answer is that Jesus is God and Jesus is a man.

And if you confess [b]Lord Jesus you are in the Holy Spirit and will touch the life of God.

No one can say "Lord Jesus" except in the Holy Spirit.

First Corinthians 12:3

[quote] King James Bible
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God c ...[text shortened]... ow much he resents it. He is definitely not in the Holy Spirit to say the Son of God is an idol.[/b]

You have made him an idol Jaywill, the fault is your own, not mine!

Originally posted by chaney3
Divegeester, you have recently said a few things that have you appearing as a full blown Agnostic now.

Which few things?