1. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    09 Jun '15 15:00
    Do angels worship Jesus?

    'And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.'

    Hebrews 1:6 (KJV)
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    09 Jun '15 15:16
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Do angels worship Jesus?

    'And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.'

    Hebrews 1:6 (KJV)
    Does that include the Archangel Michael?
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    09 Jun '15 15:241 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Do angels worship Jesus?

    'And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.'

    Hebrews 1:6 (KJV)
    Yes angels worship Jesus.
    And the vision John has in Revelation is that everything in heaven, on earth, and under the earth and in the sea worships God and Jesus.

    " And EVERY creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever. " (Rev. 5:13)


    And wouldn't you know it? The four living creatures representing all creation said "AMEN!"

    "And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (v.14)


    This "elders" by the way, are not the elders of the Christian church. Nor are they the elders of Israel. They are the elders of the universe. They are the first being created by God as the most ancient of the angels.

    They also fell down and worshiped not only at God but at God dispensed into a man - Jesus Christ the Redeeming Lamb.
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    09 Jun '15 15:25
    The angels of God surely worship the Firstborn Son. And every knew [whoever has them] and every tongue confesses Jesus as Lord.

    " That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth. And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10,11)


    Whoever you are, reading this post, look down at your knees.
    Maybe feel with your hands your knees.

    Do you see those knees? It is inevitable that one day your knees are going to bow and your tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

    I like to get some practice before hand. When the Jehovah's Witnesses have come to my door, on a couple of occasions I got down on my knees on my doorstep. I invited them to get down on their knees with me and openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

    I have not yet been able to get any Jehovah's Witness to kneel down with me and openly confess on my doorstep, that Jesus Christ is Lord.

    Two or three times I have tried this.
    One time one of them said something about those being "spiritual knees" Paul was talking about.
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    09 Jun '15 15:26
    Originally posted by sonship
    When the Jehovah's Witnesses have come to my door, on a couple of occasions I got down on my knees on my doorstep. I invited them to get down on their knees with me and openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I have not yet been able to get any Jehovah's Witness to kneel down with me and openly confess on my doorstep, that Jesus Christ is Lord. Two or th ...[text shortened]... One time one of them said something about those being "spiritual knees" Paul was talking about.
    Now you are talking a language I understand. Good for you.
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    09 Jun '15 15:27
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Now you are talking a language I understand. Good for you.
    I'm tellin ya!
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    09 Jun '15 15:34
    Originally posted by sonship
    I'm tellin ya!
    I haven't met a JW in a long time. I generally found them to be very pleasant people but more interested in telling rather than listening, which was OK. The last conversation we had finished with them going back to their local KH to find out if me not joining their organisation was, in itself, prohibitive to me being saved. Which was the question I asked them. I never saw them again.
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    09 Jun '15 15:393 edits
    " That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth. And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10,11)


    Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

    I do not think this has to mean coercion. I think it probably means that every creature, every human or other spiritual being, will have to come to terms with the truth.

    Jesus Christ is Lord. They may confess willingly in worship. Or they may confess because "No lie can live forever."

    But it is interesting that what Paul says of Jesus Christ is what God said concerning Jehovah in the Old Testament.

    Isaiah 45:23 -

    "I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness And will not return,

    That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear. It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength." (Isaiah 45:23)


    And to those who hate God and to those who teach that the One to whom we will bow confessing Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father is not God become a man, God goes on to say -

    "And all those who are burning in anger against Him shall be ashamed.
    In Jehovah all the seed of Israel shall be justified and shall glory." (v.24b,25)


    If you teach that God did not become a man you are likely angry with God. And if you do not repent you will be ashamed and come confessing Jesus is Lord.

    I think it is better to come rejoicing and praising confessing God (Isaiah 45:23) / confessing Jesus is Lord (Phil.2:10).
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    09 Jun '15 15:542 edits
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Do angels worship Jesus?

    'And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.'

    Hebrews 1:6 (KJV)
    Worship is an interesting translation of the term, it seems that with respect to Jesus christ he not only has a magical influence on verb tenses and can cast spells upon soldiers by merely identifying himself, but the simple term 'do obeisance', suddenly becomes an act of worship when used in conjuction with Jesus Christ. I don't think any other entity in the Bible has such a miraculous effect on English syntax and Greek idiomatic structure, not to mention now the lexical meaning of words.

    Here is an accurate translation free from religious bais and the centuries old dogma of the Athanasian Creed.

    First, we have to understand what Paul meant here by worship. He used the Greek word pro·sky·neʹo. Unger’s Bible Dictionary says that this word literally means to ‘kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage.’ An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says that this word “denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man . . . or to God.” In Bible times pro·sky·neʹo often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature.

    Consider the parable Jesus gave of the slave who was unable to repay a substantial sum of money to his master. A form of this Greek word appears in this parable, and in translating it the King James Version says that “the servant therefore fell down, and worshipped [form of pro·sky·neʹo] him [the king], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matthew 18:26; italics ours.) Was this man committing an idolatrous act? Not at all! He was merely expressing the kind of reverence and respect due the king, his master and superior.

    Such acts of obeisance, or expressions of respect, were fairly common in the Orient of Bible times. Jacob bowed down seven times upon meeting his brother, Esau. (Genesis 33:3) Joseph’s brothers prostrated themselves, or did obeisance, before him in honor of his position at the Egyptian court. (Genesis 42:6) In this light we can better understand what happened when the astrologers found the young child Jesus, whom they recognized as “the one born king of the Jews.” As rendered in the King James Version, the account tells us that they “fell down, and worshipped [pro·sky·neʹo] him.”—Matthew 2:2, 11.

    Clearly, then, the word pro·sky·neʹo, rendered “worship” in some Bible translations, is not reserved exclusively for the type of adoration due Jehovah God. It can also refer to the respect and honor shown to another person. In an effort to avoid any misunderstanding, some Bible translations render the word pro·sky·neʹo at Hebrews 1:6 as “pay him homage” (New Jerusalem Bible), “honour him” (The Complete Bible in Modern English), “bow down before him” (Twentieth Century New Testament), or “do obeisance to him” (New World Translation).

    So no the angels did not worship Jesus although they certainly honoured him.

    http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102000250?q=Hebrews+1%3A6&p=par#h=16
  10. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    09 Jun '15 16:23
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Worship is an interesting translation of the term, it seems that with respect to Jesus christ he not only has a magical influence on verb tenses and can cast spells upon soldiers by merely identifying himself, but the simple term 'do obeisance', suddenly becomes an act of worship when used in conjuction with Jesus Christ. I don't think any other ent ...[text shortened]... rtainly honoured him.

    http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102000250?q=Hebrews+1%3A6&p=par#h=16
    Thank you for your comprehensive answer. Dive though has raised a question it would be great to hear your views on.
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    09 Jun '15 16:253 edits
    No doubt a grand conspiracy. A religious version of the 50s song Charlie Brown - "Why's everybody always picken on me!"

    English Standard Version
    And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    New American Standard Bible
    And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

    King James Bible
    And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    When He again brings His firstborn into the world, He says, And all God's angels must worship Him.

    International Standard Version
    And again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

    NET Bible
    But when he again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all the angels of God worship him!"

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    Again, when he brings The Firstborn into the universe, he says, “All the Angels of God shall worship him.”

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    And again, when he brought in the firstbegotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    King James 2000 Bible
    And again, when he brings the firstbegotten into the world, he says, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    American King James Version
    And again, when he brings in the first-begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him.

  12. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    09 Jun '15 16:411 edit
    ' (NWT) In the 1970 edition, Heb. 1:6 is translated as the word "worship." In the 1980 version it is translated as 'obeisance.' Why the change?

    The Jehovah's Witness will probably answer this issue the same way he would with the false prophecies made by the Watchtower Magazine. He would say that "the light is getting brighter." This means that the early Watchtowers did not have the same information and light that the present Watchtower writers do. They made errors in the past, but now they know more and corrections need to be made.

    But if this were so, then how can the Jehovah's Witnesses trust what is being said now? If the doctrines have changed before, what's to prevent them from changing again? How can a Jehovah's Witness be sure that what he is believing now won't be changed later?'

    https://carm.org/heb-16-let-angels-do-obeisance-him
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    09 Jun '15 17:06
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Thank you for your comprehensive answer. Dive though has raised a question it would be great to hear your views on.
    Sorry Ghost of a Duke I have nothing to say to him, he is persona non grata as far as I am concerned and I wont be wasting a single iota replying to anything he says.
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    09 Jun '15 17:08
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    ' (NWT) In the 1970 edition, Heb. 1:6 is translated as the word "worship." In the 1980 version it is translated as 'obeisance.' Why the change?

    The Jehovah's Witness will probably answer this issue the same way he would with the false prophecies made by the Watchtower Magazine. He would say that "the light is getting brighter." This means that ...[text shortened]... s believing now won't be changed later?'

    https://carm.org/heb-16-let-angels-do-obeisance-him
    The New world translation undergoes constant revision, now why don't you make reference to the text that has already been given?
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    09 Jun '15 17:12
    Originally posted by sonship
    No doubt a grand conspiracy. A religious version of the 50s song Charlie Brown - "Why's everybody always picken on me!"

    [b] English Standard Version
    And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    New American Standard Bible
    And when He again brings the firstborn i ...[text shortened]... e first-begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    [/b]
    citing similar renderings of the text does nothing to explain the original language for all you are asking us to do is compare texts that are already translated, its deceitful, impotent and rather predictable. Now why don't you tell us why the term suddenly becomes an act of worship where Jesus is concerned but not an act of worship in other places where the exact same term is used? Is the religious bias of your translators being exposed, well, its nothing more than they deserve.
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