Are Saturday Nights a good time for a heart to hea

Originally posted by frogstomp
did it remind you of shaving?

lol j/k

You little devil you ...... it was a very big window (roomsize). The window was actually one of the sides of the big room where they (there were other gorillas too) were kept, when they were not outside. He was sitting in the left hand corner. I walked up to him and he didn't move. He just looked me in the eyes.

Originally posted by bbarr
What's the difference between an ant and an elephant or a gorilla? Here's a hint: Elephants and gorillas possess a degree of psychological complexity that far exceeds that of ant and other insects. Elephants and gorillas mourn their dead, express affection just like humans and other mammals, and so on. They are not here for your amusement, nor do you hav ...[text shortened]... ominion over them. Such species-based chauvinism is deeply immoral, and perfectly disgusting.

Gorillas: with a soul AND delicious, too!

Originally posted by flyUnity
Have you ever deliberately stepped on an ant or any other bug, yea I know they are small, but only relative to you, I'm sure you have. Whats the difference between that and an elephant? besides the size.

God created animals for man, not man for animals, so no It wasnt cruel of God

No. Actually, I don't.

I don't think the way you trivialize my healthy respect for other animals is fair. Living in Nez Perce Nat'l Forest in Idaho only 30 or so miles from the edge of the wilderness (you're from Wyoming so you know what I mean by wilderness), I grew up around wild animals as well. I know that things suffer and die, however, I still make an attempt to avoid destroying animal life. This includes ants and spiders and such.

Sure, my own vegetarianism kills off bacteria in my stomach. Still the fact that my actions destroy tiny bacteria should not be an excuse to justify callously murdering other wildlife. You are the one who sees nothing wrong with destroying 99.9999% of all the animal populations on a whim. You should be the one defending yourself, not us.

I'd also caution you not to be so cavalier with your ideas about souls. You accept souls on faith. This means that you could very well be wrong. If you cast off the life of other animals with the least regard and later you discover that you were mistaken, you have no power to give that life back. Isn't it better to play it safe? I mean if I discover that animals really are only here for our amusement, then there will be plenty of time to torture and massacre all the little squirrels that I want.

A side question: If I make a decision to have sex knowing that I could impregnate the women and she does become pregnant but I decide I don't really want the kid anymore, then upon having the baby, should I follow God's example in Gen 6 and drown it in a bath? Or should I suck up to my responsibilities and be a good father?

Originally posted by telerion
No. Actually, I don't.

I don't think the way you trivialize my healthy respect for other animals is fair. Living in Nez Perce Nat'l Forest in Idaho only 30 or so miles from the edge of the wilderness (you're from Wyoming so you know what I mean by wilderness), I grew up around wild animals as well. I know that things suffer and die, however, I s ...[text shortened]... en 6 and drown it in a bath? Or should I suck up to my responsibilities and be a good father?

I have trouble with the "torture" thing.
I say that no sane human has a desire to torture animals.

I wish you animal rights people would drop the "supress our desire to torture" argument, don't think it applies.

Well, maybe to Elmer Fudds ...

Originally posted by KneverKnight
I have trouble with the "torture" thing.
I say that no sane human has a desire to torture animals.

I wish you animal rights people would drop the "supress our desire to torture" argument, don't think it applies.

Well, maybe to Elmer Fudds ...

First, I am not identifying myself as an animal rights person, other than that I believe in human rights and humans are animals.

Second, I don't think non-vegetarians are out there trying to torture animals. My criticism is not meant for them in general. I'm specifically addressing flyUnity within the context of his justification for the needless slaughter of 99.9999+% of all animal life. Apparently he thinks that a non-human animal's only worth is determined in each moment that a human encounters it. If the human does not value it and decides instead to torture it, then who cares? It had no soul and would have died eventually anyway.

Originally posted by telerion
First, I am not identifying myself as an animal rights person, other than that I believe in human rights and humans are animals.

Second, I don't think non-vegetarians are out there trying to torture animals. My criticism is not meant for them in general. I'm specifically addressing flyUnity within the context of his justification for the needless sla ...[text shortened]... tead to torture it, then who cares? It had no soul and would have died eventually anyway.

OK. I see this. We do have anti-cruelty to animals laws now to cover the demented or negligent.

So, human rights are transferable to animals on the basis of humans being animals?

That's interesting, food for the theist and non-theist here.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

You little devil you ...... it was a very big window (roomsize). The window was actually one of the sides of the big room where they (there were other gorillas too) were kept, when they were not outside. He was sitting in the left hand corner. I walked up to him and he didn't move. He just looked me in the eyes.

The cage with a large window you describe is the same as the zoo in Toronto.
Like you, I had an experience of looking a gorilla in the eye and felt a bit ... awed in a way. He looked wise! Sounds silly, but I felt for the guy ...
Later, some kids (In spite of the large "Do not tap on the glass" signs) were slapping the glass really hard and yelling. The gorilla (a large silverback) looked bored, then suddenly slapped the glass. A huge boom echoed through the room as the glass shook and vibrated, immense power in that slap, the kids jumped back, whiter than white kids, scared away running to mama. The gorilla just kept on like you would after slapping a mosquito. I was impressed!

Originally posted by KneverKnight
OK. I see this. We do have anti-cruelty to animals laws now to cover the demented or negligent.

So, human rights are transferable to animals on the basis of humans being animals?

That's interesting, food for the theist and non-theist here.

So, human rights are transferable to animals on the basis of humans being animals?

No, I am really not saying anything about "rights." I'm talking about ethical behavior. If I get upset because my phone bill is too high and so I decide to poison all the wildlife in the harbor, then my action is unethical, in part, for reasons which go beyond direct/indirect damage to humans. FlyUnity seems to think that needlessly exterminating non-human animals is A-OK. I think that's pretty ridiculous.

Originally posted by telerion
[b]So, human rights are transferable to animals on the basis of humans being animals?

No, I am really not saying anything about "rights." I'm talking about ethical behavior. If I get upset because my phone bill is too high and so I decide to poison all the wildlife in the harbor, then my action is unethical, in part, for reasons which go beyond ...[text shortened]... that needlessly exterminating non-human animals is A-OK. I think that's pretty ridiculous.

[/b]

Agreed

Originally posted by KneverKnight
I have trouble with the "torture" thing.
I say that no sane human has a desire to torture animals.

I wish you animal rights people would drop the "supress our desire to torture" argument, don't think it applies.

Well, maybe to Elmer Fudds ...

ANNOUNCING THE 3RD ANNUAL FEAST OF THE SACRIFICE
The Born-Again Christian Church of the Saved
666 Revelation Street:
Faithfully invites the public to visit us Sunday June 19th to a GREAT animal sacrificial diner Come in for the Joyous Silly Rabbit Hunt led by none other than the special man od GOD himself ,,that's right The RIGHT Reverend Elmer Fudd D.D. Ph. D. 6 time winner of Christians for GOD award for . Humanist Bashing

After dinner consisting of roast rabbit and popcorn..balls ( borrowed last December from the heathen St MarysRoman Catholic School's Christmas Tree We shall all gather at
a legal (damn that Bill Clinton) distance from The Planned Parenhood Build on Elm Street to hear speches by Reverend Heckle and Dr Jeckyll after which Reverend Yosemite Sam Will lead a demonstration to the City Hall to get the Mayor to force the School Board to put creation back into the 3rd grade.

Restoring The Entire word of GOD is our goal.

Originally posted by frogstomp
ANNOUNCING THE 3RD ANNUAL FEAST OF THE SACRIFICE
The Born-Again Christian Church of the Saved
666 Revelation Street:
Faithfully invites the public to visit us Sunday June 19th to a GREAT animal sacrificial diner Come in for the Joyous Silly Rabbit Hunt led by none other than the special man od GOD himself ...[text shortened]... put creation back into the 3rd grade.

Restoring The Entire word of GOD is our goal.

I think you're funny, therefore I'm darned.
But, I have the comfort of knowing it's all predestined ...
🙄

Originally posted by telerion
[b]So, human rights are transferable to animals on the basis of humans being animals?

No, I am really not saying anything about "rights." I'm talking about ethical behavior. If I get upset because my phone bill is too high and so I decide to poison all the wildlife in the harbor, then my action is unethical, in part, for reasons which go beyond ...[text shortened]... that needlessly exterminating non-human animals is A-OK. I think that's pretty ridiculous.

[/b]

wow, Im shocked that you would go out of the way to save a spider, or an ant, If I ever seen a spider or mosqito on me, its dead, no thought about it, even if its not bugging me, I will still kill it, its offspring may bug me lol

I respect the animals, but I am also a hunter, (Jesus himself caught fish)


You say that I think its ok to needlessly xterminating non-human animals. you are 100% wrong, I do not belive that for a sec, I do believe that its ok for God to though, God exterminated Humans that were in that last earthquake (Cant think of the name of it at the moment) I know you dont like when christians use "God dunnit" but thats just the way it is. He know far above what we know, and to question him is like a 2 year old thinking that he knows more then his dad. I know you are an atheist, so all of this is rubbish to you


off topic questions,
if you seen a wild animal suffering, would you shoot it to put it out of its misery?
why does animals in your veiw get more rights then unborn children?
i guess evoultionist think we are the related to animals, which tells me why you put humans and animals in the same catagory, try to look at it from a creation stand point of veiw

wow, Im shocked that you would go out of the way to save a spider, or an ant, If I ever seen a spider or mosqito on me, its dead, no thought about it, even if its not bugging me, I will still kill it, its offspring may bug me lol

I don't really think of it as "going out of my way." I just don't bother. It seems that you go out of your way to destroy them.

I respect the animals, but I am also a hunter, (Jesus himself caught fish)

I'm not too sure how much respect for animals hunting displays (That Jesus fished is not indicative of moral justification in my eyes.), but I'll save that debate for another time.

As for God exterminating people and animals. It seems we might be skirting on the edge of Euthyphro's Dilemma. Is whatever God does morally good because God does it? Or does God choose only to do morally good things?
Why is it right for him to exterminate almost every last animal when he could have chosen a different method? And then why is it wrong for humans to also mass exterminate non-human animals? Most importantly, if it is good for God to do it and bad for humans to do it, from where does this rule come? Did God make it up himself? Or is it from an independent moral law that God recognizes but did not write?

if you seen a wild animal suffering, would you shoot it to put it out of its misery?

If I thought that its suffering was a permanent condition and was severe enough, then yes, given no other less gruesome or pain-inducing methods, I would kill the animal with a gun.

why does animals in your veiw get more rights then unborn children?

I have repeatedly said that I am not talking about animal rights. I kill animals. Not only the bacteria in my body. I have exterminated whole colonies of ants in my apartment walls. I've killed a mosquitos that were about to bite me. I have killed countless bugs on my car windshield by choosing to drive rather than walk. Plenty of creatures are accidently killed to harvest the fruits, vegetables, and grains that I consume. In a war zone, if given no other choice, I would kill people as well.

I make my decision based upon the circumstances. Sentience plays a big role. Crushing a spider is not that big a deal to me (I avoid only because it is unnecessary.). Killing a chimpanzee on the other hand is about up there with murder in my book. There are circumstances in which I believe killing chimps is justified, but to destroy one with the zeal with which you describe crushing insects is in my opinion a heinous crime.

Now the unborn human (let's avoid child because that is really not a precise definition and so blurs what we are talking about) goes through many stages. During a fairly long portion of this time the zygote/embryo/fetus cannot be sentient. During this period destroying it should not be a crime upon the zygote/embryo/fetus. It may be a crime upon the mother depending upon whether the mother willed the destruction (like property). Later, in its development the fetus does have the components for sentience. At this point I think we must be careful. It becomes like killing a chimp or another human. In some situations it is justified. In others it is not. I hold that in the last trimester, a child should not be aborted unless the mother's life is in danger or the child is so severely malformed that it would only endure a short-life of extreme pain.

So you see? I do not bestow any "rights" upon non-human animals, and I justify certain abortions.

i guess evoultionist think we are the related to animals, which tells me why you put humans and animals in the same catagory, try to look at it from a creation stand point of veiw

Yes, I think that we are distantly 'related' (genetically speaking, not in a familiar sort of way) to other creatures. As you can see from above, I do not derive my ethics from evolution, other than to appreciate the enormous time that it took for these creatures to evolve and the tragedy it would be to recklessly cause their extinction.

I looked at it from a creation point of view for most of my life. Even if you subscribe to Dominion theory (we have dominion over the animals), you must remember that we are also to be good stewards. I don't see how taking joy in needlessly destroying God's creation reflects good stewardship. I think all of your arguments in this post have been based essentially on "might makes right." I do not see how this view is harmonized with the biblical creationist's view.