04 Mar 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterI suppose even cults can have allies.
The logic of this argument begins with the premise that only God can save. Beside the influence of pagan thought, this idea comes from the fact that God is called “Savior” in Scripture. For example:
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.
Because the above verse seems to say that God is the only savior, the argument ...[text shortened]... s is an angel, he was a man, and did not exist before he was born except in God's foreknowledge.
A follow-up question, then. Who or what was the "Word" in John 1:1?
04 Mar 16
Originally posted by SuzianneSimple. The scripture in Isaiah is God (Jehovah) speaking. Jesus had not been given by his father Jehovah the responsibility of being our savior yet by coming to earth and allowing himself to give his life for all humans as a ransom for what Adam lost for us.
I'd like an answer to this, a question that both Robbie and Roigam have evaded.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." -- Isaiah 43:11, KJV
What do you think this means? And how might this relate to John 14:6?
Remember this is the Father of Jesus speaking, not Jesus.
Now the other scripture in John is Jesus speaking. Up until the time Jesus was born here on this planet, his Father Jehovah was the only way or source to give his people protection and life either then our in the future.
So once Jehovah gave his son Jesus this assignment to come to earth and sometime in his future life on earth be killed, would now allow humans to be forgiven for their sins without sacrifices being involved any more and also cancelling out Adam's sin that we all inherited sometime in the future.
Jesus was now the avenue that we now go thru for life and even to pray to his Father which was set up by his Father. Jehovah is still Almighty God and Jesus's Father. He could trump his son at anytime and be the one who would still be the only way to gain life if Jehovah God deemed it to be so.
How's that?
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
04 Mar 16
Originally posted by SuzianneJohn 1:1
I suppose even cults can have allies.
A follow-up question, then. Who or what was the "Word" in John 1:1?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV)
1. It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as “Word” in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated “Word” (some versions even write “Jesus Christ” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translators’ decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture.
As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like “reason,” (thus “logic” is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a “word,” “saying,” “command” etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words.
Any good Greek lexicon will also show this wide range of meaning (the words in italics are translated from logos):
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/but-what-about-john-1-1
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
04 Mar 16
Originally posted by divegeester1 Peter 1:11
"Jesus didn't exist before he was born". How do you get that from scripture? That doesn't even fit with trinitarian doctrine.
1 Peter 1 -10-11
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Ch ...[text shortened]... s (not a part or a third) of the godhead.
And you lot call me anti-Christ. Unbelievable![/b]
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (KJV)
The fact that this verse says the “spirit of Christ” was upon people in the Old Testament has caused people to believe that Christ himself was present in the Old Testament. But, as we will see, such is not the case. In the first place, the phrase “spirit of Christ” never appears in the Old Testament. The “spirit of the Lord” or “the spirit of God” appears over and over, but never the “spirit of Christ.”
The spirit that God places upon people takes on different names as it refers to different functions. This can be abundantly proven. Nevertheless, the spirit is the same. God always gives His spirit, and then it is named as it functions. When it is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Ex. 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph. 1:17). When it is associated with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Zech.12:10; Heb. 10:29). When it is related to glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Pet. 4:14). It is called the “spirit of adoption” when it is associated with our everlasting life (Rom. 8:15, which is translated as “spirit of sonship” in some versions). It is called “the spirit of truth” when it is associated with the truth we learn by revelation (John 14:17; 16:13). When it came with the same power as it brought to Elijah, it was called “the spirit of Elijah” (2 Kings 2:15). These are not different spirits. All the names refer to the one gift of holy spirit that God gives. Ephesians 4:4 states clearly that there is “one spirit,” and that spirit is God’s gift of holy spirit given to some people in the Old Testament and to all believers today.
When Peter mentions that “the spirit of Christ” was upon prophets as they “predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow,” it is easy to see that the spirit is called the “spirit of Christ” because it is associated with Christ and foretold of Christ, not because Christ was actually alive during the Old Testament.
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-peter-1-11
04 Mar 16
Originally posted by checkbaiternot only that but their translators recognize the Greek idiom in the first clause of John 1:1 and then completely ignore it in the second to make it appear that the word is God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV)
1. It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as “Word” in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is ...[text shortened]... ics are translated from logos):
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/but-what-about-john-1-1
04 Mar 16
Originally posted by Captain StrangeWe didn't rewrite the bible by any stretch of the imagination. Jehovah works thru his spirit to direct ones who are doing his will completely as the bible explains. The majority of bible translation have been altered by many to make such things as the trinity look and sound more real. All we do is let Jehovah direct us to make those corrections to clarify and correct those mistakes or untruths in other bibles.
LOL your lot had to rewrite the bible to make it fit their beliefs.
So my question is this as I know most here will make their usual remarks that "we" are changing the bible as you yourself just posted, is how do you prove God isn't directing us to make these needed corrections for all to see and make the truths in the bible easier to understand? Explain with proof that God is truly not directing us to do this?
Originally posted by galveston75You are a comedian and a liar as well.
We didn't rewrite the bible by any stretch of the imagination. Jehovah works thru his spirit to direct ones who are doing his will completely as the bible explains. The majority of bible translation have been altered by many to make such things as the trinity look and sound more real. All we do is let Jehovah direct us to make those corrections to clarif ...[text shortened]... he bible easier to understand? Explain with proof that God is truly not directing us to do this?
What about Beth-Shan and the return of the princes.
Google it
04 Mar 16
Originally posted by galveston75Again, with respect, that is not a very strong argument.
We didn't rewrite the bible by any stretch of the imagination. Jehovah works thru his spirit to direct ones who are doing his will completely as the bible explains. The majority of bible translation have been altered by many to make such things as the trinity look and sound more real. All we do is let Jehovah direct us to make those corrections to clarif ...[text shortened]... he bible easier to understand? Explain with proof that God is truly not directing us to do this?
I could say that God was directing me to eat aardvarks and then simply say it was down to you to prove God was not truly directing me to do so. - In reality of course, the onus would be on me to prove my assertion.