Originally posted by twhiteheadThe ultimate goal from claiming that 'atheism is a belief' is to unburden theists from having to shoulder the entire burden of proof.
I agree generally, that it doesn't really matter what words we use as labels, so long as the definitions are mutually agreed.
The danger is that people have a tendency to commit a logical error when it comes to definitions. They think that if they can get a label to stick even if they have to redefine it, then any other attributes that label used to carr ...[text shortened]... t my positive belief is well grounded in evidence and logic, whereas a theists belief is not.
Originally posted by JS35714 Jul '13 02:13
What do you say about lacking belief in any god?
Originally posted by Great King Rat
"It always amazes me that religious people would want to equate their belief with that of the atheist. I mean, "believing" in god is something entirely different than "not believing" in god, isn't it? The way I understand it, theists don't just look at the world and say "oh well, based on emotionless, empiric evidence I have no choice but to come to th ...[text shortened]... e that you need to make everybody "a believer"?
How pitiful."
________________________
"No, believing that there is only one of something, more than one of
something, or none of something is still believing, and if you believe
that the correct value means all other variables are to be looked at one
way over another because of that correct value, as soon as you choose to
look at all the other variables in the light of your beliefs about that value
than you without a doubt have a belief system."
Kelly
___________________
"What do you say about lacking belief in any god?" (JS357)
"JS, please help me to see the reference "about lacking belief in any god?"
1 edit
Originally posted by SwissGambitI don't agree.
Then you have a countless number of 'belief systems' and the term has been rendered useless.
belief system
The belief system of a person or society is the set of beliefs that they have about what is right and wrong and what is true and false.
We have lots of them. We use different sets of beliefs about what is right and wrong and what is true and false when we judge math claims then when, for example, we are reading claims in the newspaper, or go gods-bothering. Seems to me. Different standards of evidence.
I guess you're using different definitions somewhere. What are they?
Originally posted by twhiteheadhttp://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/
Please explain why they aren't.
[b]Of course, and no.
What about your lack of belief in Shingitzu, prior to my telling you of him?
I am trying to establish whether your lack of belief becomes a belief system only when you consciously decide not to believe.
Would you describe all monotheists as athiests-1 ie athiests for all gods but one?
Would ...[text shortened]... tricted to supernatural entities or are they our opinions on the validity of any truth claim?[/b]
"‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. ..."
Babies and rocks haven't made that denial.
What about your lack of belief in Shingitzu, prior to my telling you of him?
I am trying to establish whether your lack of belief becomes a belief system only when you consciously decide not to believe.
?
We don't hold opinions or thoughts about stuff we haven't heard of yet, so we don't hold beliefs about them.
Would you describe all monotheists as athiests-1 ie athiests for all gods but one?
No, because they do believe in a god.
Would you describe them as having a belief system with respect to each god they don't believe in, or is the totality of what they believe in or don't believe in their belief system?
Both, I think. Different standard of evidence.
Originally posted by apathistYour quoted definition only admits of one system possible per person or society. Then you say we have lots. Which is it?
I don't agree.
belief system
The belief system of a person or society is the set of beliefs that they have about what is right and wrong and what is true and false.
We have lots of them. We use different sets of beliefs about what is right and wrong and what is true and false when we judge math claims then when, for example, we are reading ...[text shortened]... tandards of evidence.
I guess you're using different definitions somewhere. What are they?
Originally posted by SwissGambitBut I don't see where it only admits of one system per person or society. It merely explains what a belief system consists of. There are other ways to define it, too, of course.
Your quoted definition only admits of one system possible per person or society. Then you say we have lots. Which is it?
rwingett
All babies are born as implicit atheists. As is everyone who is unfamiliar with theism, or who is incapable of conceptualizing it. Babies can be expected to subsequently grow up to be either explicit atheists or theists.
Yes. "Implicit atheism", according to the way its defined in, say, Wiki, does imply that babies (and perhaps rocks, depending on which definition one chooses) are atheists. I'd say its a useless term.
Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief.
I think that is a necessary condition, but it is not sufficient. In all the various ways to categorize types of atheism, the "implicit/explicit" idea doesn't help advance knowledge or understanding about the philosophical subject of theism.
The terms aren't really used anywhere.
Philosophy Pages defines "atheism" as Belief that god does not exist.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI will try. Kelly says, "believing that there is only one of something, more than one of something, or none of something is still believing,..."
14 Jul '13 02:13
Originally posted by Great King Rat
"It always amazes me that religious people would want to equate their belief with that of the atheist. I mean, "believing" in god is something entirely different than "not believing" in god, isn't it? The way I understand it, theists don't just look at the world and say "oh well, based on emotion ...[text shortened]...
"JS, please help me to see the reference "about lacking belief in any god?"
So I ask, where the "something" is a god or gods, what about the person who lacks any of these three beliefs? Is that a belief system? is the atheism of any person who so lacks, a belief system?
This is a rather academic question I ask.
So what if its labelled a belief system or not.
We all know what it means. Not theistic or polytheistic, not agnostic or spiritual with no god (like Buddhism).
Atheists often claim to be the holders of ultimate rationale because they believe that they only take into account that which can be detected with our senses. (They do overlook the possibility that there may be more to life than meets the eye, that there may be information that they don't yet have the means to understand.)
sometimes lumped alongside agnostics, atheists generally have nothing much else in common with each other and certainly are different from agnostics.
And as a general response to god-deity religions, atheists are clear and concise about what they consider to be true.
2 edits
Originally posted by JS357I believe I already answered this on page 1 of this thread when I posted the following:
I will try. Kelly says, "believing that there is only one of something, more than one of something, or none of something is still believing,..."
So I ask, where the "something" is a god or gods, what about the person who lacks any of these three beliefs? Is that a belief system? is the atheism of any person who so lacks, a belief system?
This is a rather academic question I ask.
I wrote, "Babies and rocks don't disbelieve in god's either. That is because a rock does not have the ability by conscientiousness to believe or disbelieve anything and the baby has not yet gained enough experience and knowledge to make a decision what to believe or not believe."
Then, I wrote, "It is very clear to me that all normal adult humans have beliefs that shape their worldview. Atheism is definitely a belief that is opposite the belief of theism. No doubt about it."
So you must have developed enough experience and knowledge to have a belief system to be able to not believe in God or gods. So you don't believe because of your deveoped belief system. You believe you are an atheist because you have a belief system. Get it?
The Instructor
Originally posted by apathistOK so we are talking about strong atheism. And I notice you capitalized 'God'. Are you ignoring the fact that I deny the existence of Thor, or is that part of the definition? Are we talking about only the Abrahamic God?
"‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. ..."
Babies and rocks haven't made that denial.
Would you describe all monotheists as athiests-1 ie athiests for all gods but one?
No, because they do believe in a god.
I think you need to re-read what I said. Is a monotheist an atheist with respect to all gods that they deny the existence of?
Different standard of evidence.
Please clarify. Different from what, and what are theses standards?
Originally posted by RJHindsIn a word, no. I don't get it. I introspect and find no belief there is or is not a god. Get it?
I believe I already answered this on page 1 of this thread when I posted the following:
I wrote, "Babies and rocks don't disbelieve in god's either. That is because a rock does not have the ability by conscientiousness to believe or disbelieve anything and the baby has not yet gained enough experience and knowledge to make a decision what to believe or no ...[text shortened]... u believe you are an atheist because you have a belief system. Get it?
The Instructor