"atheism is a belief"

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]I never gave a thought to how it all started while I wasn't a believer in God, but I do not think I would have accepted everything from nothing. That one I think I would have
just ignored since it demands an answer there isn't one without God it would have made me think about something I wasn't taking seriously.

I remember the first time I resp ...[text shortened]... o everything I would normally be responding to... and someone else will have to feed the trolls.[/b]

Ya won't get something from nothing... nope, it can't happen.

As Googlefudge pointed out it is technically possible to get some something from nothing. I remember watching a TV program several years ago when the insights into this were first being popularised; I was astonished at how the simple mathematical principle of the reversibility of equations could demonstrate how this as possible. If I remember correctly the scientists were using E=mc2 to show that if mass can be completely annihilated to release incredible energy then the reverse was possible. I remember being struck at how beautifully science could explain creation from nothing through the Big Bang.

Originally posted by divegeester
[b]Ya won't get something from nothing... nope, it can't happen.

As Googlefudge pointed out it is technically possible to get some something from nothing. I remember watching a TV program several years ago when the insights into this were first being popularised; I was astonished at how the simple mathematical principle of the reversibility of eq ...[text shortened]... eing struck at how beautifully science could explain creation from nothing through the Big Bang.[/b]

So in other words E (the energy released) is the same as saying 'nothing'? I don't think so.

Most of the something from nothing theories I've read rely on conceptual (imaginary) numbers, and ideas such as the existence of virtual particles becoming real particles due to vibrations in the nothingness. That's like saying there is a party going on next door but no one is actually there...virtual party animals maybe, but not real ones.

The idea that something (anything) can come from nothing is worse than magic, because with magic you at least have a magician and his hat. Virtual particles may not be real particles, but where did the virtual particles come from if there is nowhere for them to come from? This appears more like the magic of misdirection and word manipulation than legitimate physics.

Originally posted by lemon lime
So in other words E (the energy released) is the same as saying 'nothing'? I don't think so.

Most of the something from nothing theories I've read rely on conceptual (imaginary) numbers, and ideas such as the existence of virtual particles becoming real particles due to vibrations in the nothingness. That's like saying there is a party going on next do ...[text shortened]... This appears more like the magic of misdirection and word manipulation than legitimate physics.

Do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth from nothing? If not then your post makes sense, if you do then how do you think matter appeared without energy?

Originally posted by divegeester
Do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth from nothing? If not then your post makes sense, if you do then how do you think matter appeared without energy?

You're missing the point... where did the energy for creating that matter come from?

The only way a theoretical physicist can get something from nothing is if he first introduces something into it. Such as virtual particles. But how can there be a vibration (what is vibrating?) causing virtual particles to become 'real' if nothing exists to vibrate and the particles aren't real?

Originally posted by lemon lime
You're missing the point... where did the energy for creating that matter come from?

The only way a theoretical physicist can get something from nothing is if he first introduces something into it. Such as virtual particles. But how can there be a vibration (what is vibrating?) causing virtual particles to become 'real' if nothing exists to vibrate and the particles aren't real?

I'm not missing the point at all. If God created the heavens and the earth from nothing then the energy to do it came from him. Do you believe God created the heavens and the earth?

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm not missing the point at all. If God created the heavens and the earth from nothing then the energy to do it came from him. Do you believe God created the heavens and the earth?

You already know I believe God exists and is self existent. So if I don't believe the physical universe could have materialized out of nothing, or from virtual particles or vibrating strings or remnants of past realities or multi-verses... then where do you think I might believe it all came from?

If you're not satisfied with this answer then bear in mind I have no reason to trust you, or for believing there is no ulterior motive behind your questions.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm not missing the point at all. If God created the heavens and the earth from nothing then the energy to do it came from him.

What if the total energy in the universe is zero?

Originally posted by twhitehead
What if the total energy in the universe is zero?

Total energy, or total observable energy?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Total energy, or total observable energy?

Total energy. It is a hypothetical not an observed fact that I am asking about.

It is however not an impossibility:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Okay. I like your "hats" as a metaphor. Would agree with the "fact that "We all share belief or faith as a third mean of perception based on confidence in the authority of someone whose veracity we explicitly trust..." with reference to our perceptions within the secular realm?

And when you say: "I only put on my atheist hat to say 'there is ...[text shortened]... and shoved in the drawer." does your "atheist hat" ever question its own absolute authority?[/b]

"Would (you) agree with the "fact that "We all share belief or faith as a third mean of perception based on confidence in the authority of someone whose veracity we explicitly trust..." with reference to our perceptions within the secular realm?"

Agree with it? Not sure i even understand it. 😉 (I guess you could say i 'believe in my own reason based on acquired knowledge and influenced by others who i have found to be compelling).

And a hat doesn't have absolute authority, or the ability to question itself. (If it did, i would sell it). My atheism too is not absolute. I am always open to new evidence. (Not to be found on youtube).

Originally posted by lemon lime
You already know I believe God exists and is self existent. So if I don't believe the physical universe could have materialized out of nothing, or from virtual particles or vibrating strings or remnants of past realities or multi-verses... then where do you think I might believe it all came from?

Why are you so paranoid all the time. How on earth should I be able to think up what you may or may not believe.

My question is straightforward: do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth?

Originally posted by twhitehead
What if the total energy in the universe is zero?

That is a really interesting concept which has intuitive appeal. However as far as I can tell, it doesn't override: mass being created from nothing as a reverse of mass returning to nothing releasing energy. If the net effect is zero, then what caused the big bang?

Originally posted by divegeester
That is a really interesting concept which has intuitive appeal. However as far as I can tell, it doesn't override: mass being created from nothing as a reverse of mass returning to nothing releasing energy. If the net effect is zero, then what caused the big bang?

Something lit the big fuse?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Total energy. It is a hypothetical not an observed fact that I am asking about.

It is however not an impossibility:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

I never realised that gravity was supposed to be the negative energy. I always thought that it would be so called dark energy. Physics is confusing, to say the least. 🙄

Originally posted by lemon lime
Something lit the big fuse?

As a professed Christian, do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth?