"atheism is a belief"

Originally posted by googlefudge
The problem is not that we disagree about seeing the world differently.

The problem is you insisting that we view the world through our atheism.

That is you making false assertions about how we view the world.

And then you ignoring all our efforts to explain to you why you are wrong.


I have a completely different world view to yours, I view ...[text shortened]... ist lens/prism' is
both wrong, and as you keep insisting on knowing how we/I think, insulting.

I'll stop answering you, as I more than likely should have a few posts back. It does seem
my point of view does not sit well with you.

We do look at the world differently, which has been my point all along.
I don't care why you are an Atheist, it is not important to this discussion.
The only thing that is you have already agreed with which is we look at the universe in
ways that are not the same.
You want to make this out to my not understanding how science works instead of the
very starting part we bring into science as we step up and start applying our views to
the data and methods applied.

We are completely different but the differences are not based upon science, but the
starting place we are at when we begin our quest for knowledge.

You want to be an Atheist because of that lens, I don't care why you are, you are and
that is where you are at.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll stop answering you, as I more than likely should have a few posts back. It does seem
my point of view does not sit well with you.

We do look at the world differently, which has been my point all along.
I don't care why you are an Atheist, it is not important to this discussion.
The only thing that is you have already agreed with which is we look ...[text shortened]... n Atheist because of that lens, I don't care why you are, you are and
that is where you are at.

I'll stop answering you, as I more than likely should have a few posts back. It does seem
my point of view does not sit well with you.

That's because it's wrong, and you ignore my explanation as to why it's wrong.

We do look at the world differently, which has been my point all along.

NOBODY has disputed that. ever, in the slightest.

The question is, and has always been WHY and IN WHAT WAY, do we view the world differently.

I don't care why you are an Atheist, it is not important to this discussion.

Again, this is wrong. it IS important, because your claim was, and is, that my/our atheism is the
SOURCE of our views, and the SOURCE of the differences between our outlooks and this is not true.

The SOURCE of our differences is something else, and that something else RESULTS in my being
an atheist. My atheism isn't a source of anything.

You want to make this out to my not understanding how science works instead of the
very starting part we bring into science as we step up and start applying our views to
the data and methods applied.

You are trying to argue that my/our starting point is atheism, is assuming that god/s don't exist.
This is your mistake, and misunderstanding.

We are completely different but the differences are not based upon science, but the
starting place we are at when we begin our quest for knowledge.

I agree that a large part of our differences are due to having different starting points.

The thing I/we can't seem to get across to you is that our starting point IS NOT ATHEISM.

THAT is what we are arguing about.

You want to be an Atheist because of that lens, I don't care why you are, you are and
that is where you are at.

Well I don't 'want' to be an atheist so much as I just AM an atheist because of that lens.
Which is my whole point, I am an atheist because of that lens.

That lens thus CANNOT be atheism.

You just made my point.

Now can you grasp it?

Originally posted by googlefudge

I could be wrong, but if you are an Atheist, than that is your view point on how you look at
things is it not?

NO, no it's not. That is what I/we are trying to get through to you.

EDIT:

You don't look at the world as if you were a Christian while you are an
Atheist do you?

No, I don't look at the world as a Chr ...[text shortened]... hristian, I would STILL be a secular humanist and view the world through the
eye's of science.

There are a lot of people who believe in God that are not Christians, this isn't about that.
I actually don't care why are you an Atheist either, as I have stated over and over.

Originally posted by googlefudge

I'll stop answering you, as I more than likely should have a few posts back. It does seem
my point of view does not sit well with you.

That's because it's wrong, and you ignore my explanation as to why it's wrong.

We do look at the world differently, which has been my point all along.

NOBODY has disputed that. ev ...[text shortened]... ns.

That lens thus CANNOT be atheism.

You just made my point.

Now can you grasp it?[/b]

We disagree, I think we can agree on that.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I could be wrong, but if you are an Atheist, than that is your view point on how you look at
things is it not? You don't look at the world as if you were a Christian while you are an
Atheist do you?

🙂 There's no 'could' about it.

I told you that i grew out of superman. As an adult though, my viewpoint of the world is not as a 'non-superman believer.' Same goes for God. Lacking him in my life has no greater sway on my view point than lacking superman. (I readily accept that 'you' think it should, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't).

In other words, my view point of the world is not determined by rejecting something that 'you' believe in. God is your bag dude, not mine.

Hope that makes sense?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
🙂 There's no 'could' about it.

I told you that i grew out of superman. As an adult though, my viewpoint of the world is not as a 'non-superman believer.' Same goes for God. Lacking him in my life has no greater sway on my view point than lacking superman. (I readily accept that 'you' think it should, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn ...[text shortened]... cting something that 'you' believe in. God is your bag dude, not mine.

Hope that makes sense?

As I said, you have your point of view, you use it to look at all things.

Originally posted by KellyJay
As I said, you have your point of view, you use it to look at all things.

Agreed. But that point of view is influenced by far more important things to me than the rejection of something believed by someone else.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll stop answering you, as I more than likely should have a few posts back

Par.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Agreed. But that point of view is influenced by far more important things to me than the rejection of something believed by someone else.

Look at it like this, at some point you put on glasses to see with. With those glasses you
then start viewing everything through them. It does not matter if you have to wear them
if you are going blind, if your eye was damaged, or some other reason, the point is those
are what you look at the world with. How you define your glasses is up to you, not up to
anyone else, but if you have a set on they are there for everything you look at.

Now granted some people say they have taken off their glasses to look at the world with,
and that too is okay, they have the eyes they see with no matter what shape their eyes
are in, their view of the world will only be as good as the eyes they have to see with.

Your influenced by your life experiences, the choices you make, what makes you look at
the world the way you do will always be something internal to you. If that were not true
than everyone would see the same things, the same way, while all looking at the same
things. We cannot even look at a piece of art, read a book, see a movie and all of us walk
way liking it, or disliking them the same way each time. We are molded by the choices we
make, the events we live through and we tend to look at the world around us due them
all.

Originally posted by KellyJay
This is the heart of the issue in my opinion. We view things differently, as I have been
trying to point out. As a Christian now I see God's hand in the universe, before didn't look
for it, and I was living my life without God, I didn't care. That absence of belief about God,
or out right rejection made the universe look different than it does now to me, ...[text shortened]... re isn't one without God it would have made
me think about something I wasn't taking seriously.

One case in point illustrating muddled thinking on the part of many atheists can be found in the title (and purpose) of this thread. Many atheists insist their mindset is not a belief. On the other hand, they will insist that what Christians hold to be true is a belief. But I can't imagine anyone making this sort of distinction unless they have first fooled themselves into thinking it's a true distinction. The twisted logic behind this is not terribly difficult to unravel:

If a Christian thinks it's true God exists it's a belief.
If an atheist thinks it's true there is no God it isn't a belief.

So if what an atheist thinks is true is not a belief, then it must be a fact. And if it's a fact, then there is no reason to have endless discussions about it because facts have a way of proving themselves without our help or help from anyone else. But if everyone in the world is not an atheist in spite of the non-existence of God being a fact, then maybe it really isn't a fact. Maybe this is just something atheists have managed to fool themselves and others into not believing, but not by calling it not believing but by simply saying it's not true.
(circular reasoning and word manipulation)

So how about this, how about we level the playing field here and discard all of the double standards... and decide whether or not the idea and definition of a 'belief' belongs on either side of the table?

Actually, I'm not seriously proposing we do this. Because I believe and think it's true that it has about as much chance of success as getting through the month of August trying to be nice to everyone. It's a feel good sort of idea, but the realist in me is saying it won't happen.

Originally posted by lemon lime
One case in point illustrating muddled thinking on the part of many atheists can be found in the title (and purpose) of this thread. Many atheists insist their mindset is not a belief. On the other hand, they will insist that what Christians hold to be true is a belief. But I can't imagine anyone making this sort of distinction unless they have first fool ...[text shortened]... ice to everyone. It's a feel good sort of idea, but the realist in me is saying it won't happen.

With respect to August I believe kudos should go to googlefudge and Ghost of a Duke.
I know my point of view has not been to their liking, but to their credit, they have been
most agreeable as they disagree with me! I also feel I was pushing the insult button, not
meaning too, but they still were great in their debate.

I'll read the rest of your post a little later, I just wanted to say that.

Originally posted by lemon lime
One case in point illustrating muddled thinking on the part of many atheists can be found in the title (and purpose) of this thread. Many atheists insist their mindset is not a belief. On the other hand, they will insist that what Christians hold to be true is a belief. But I can't imagine anyone making this sort of distinction unless they have first fool ...[text shortened]... ice to everyone. It's a feel good sort of idea, but the realist in me is saying it won't happen.

One case in point illustrating muddled thinking on the part of many atheists can be found in the title (and purpose) of this thread. Many atheists insist their mindset is not a belief. On the other hand, they will insist that what Christians hold to be true is a belief. But I can't imagine anyone making this sort of distinction unless they have first fooled themselves into thinking it's a true distinction. The twisted logic behind this is not terribly difficult to unravel:

If a Christian thinks it's true God exists it's a belief.
If an atheist thinks it's true there is no God it isn't a belief.

Ah, it's the king of muddled thinking himself.

"If an atheist thinks it's true there is no God it isn't a belief"

WRONG.

If an atheist LACKS a belief in the existence of gods then they [by definition] LACK a belief on the topic.
If an atheist believes in the non-existence of gods then they of course have a belief.

I for one am in the latter camp, and believe that gods do not exist.

This is a point we make time and time again, for you to claim otherwise implies you are either unbelievably stupid,
or lying.

So if what an atheist thinks is true is not a belief, then it must be a fact. And if it's a fact, then there is no reason to have endless discussions about it because facts have a way of proving themselves without our help or help from anyone else. But if everyone in the world is not an atheist in spite of the non-existence of God being a fact, then maybe it really isn't a fact. Maybe this is just something atheists have managed to fool themselves and others into not believing, but not by calling it not believing but by simply saying it's not true.
(circular reasoning and word manipulation)

This would be mind bending gibberish even if it were not based on a completely faulty premise.

As it is based on a factually untrue premise, it's simply complete and total garbage.

So how about this, how about we level the playing field here and discard all of the double standards... and decide whether or not the idea and definition of a 'belief' belongs on either side of the table?

I have a better idea.

Stop lying about what we say so you can make up ridiculous straw man arguments like this one.

Actually, I'm not seriously proposing we do this. Because I believe and think it's true that it has about as much chance of success as getting through the month of August trying to be nice to everyone. It's a feel good sort of idea, but the realist in me is saying it won't happen.

No it's an epically stupid idea, one you are already backing off from because you know that you are lying through your teeth.

Originally posted by KellyJay
With respect to August I believe kudos should go to googlefudge and Ghost of a Duke.
I know my point of view has not been to their liking, but to their credit, they have been
most agreeable as they disagree with me! I also feel I was pushing the insult button, not
meaning too, but they still were great in their debate.

I'll read the rest of your post a little later, I just wanted to say that.

Hah, I did not see that coming.

With you I am mainly just frustrated that I can't get you to understand my arguments.

I don't know if it's because I haven't yet found the right way to articulate them, or because
you simply cannot, or will not, understand them.

I will however keep trying to find different ways of expressing them in the hope that you will
one day understand them. [not expecting you to agree, that's not actually my objective]

Originally posted by googlefudge
Hah, I did not see that coming.

With you I am mainly just frustrated that I can't get you to understand my arguments.

I don't know if it's because I haven't yet found the right way to articulate them, or because
you simply cannot, or will not, understand them.

I will however keep trying to find different ways of expressing them in the hope tha ...[text shortened]... u will
one day understand them. [not expecting you to agree, that's not actually my objective]

I do think we are looking at the same data and disagreeing the reasons, which can be like
looking at a movie and both walking away with one liking it the other not so much. 🙂

Either way, kudos I know you have held back with me and I am thankful for your restraint.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Look at it like this, at some point you put on glasses to see with. With those glasses you
then start viewing everything through them. It does not matter if you have to wear them
if you are going blind, if your eye was damaged, or some other reason, the point is those
are what you look at the world with. How you define your glasses is up to you, not up t ...[text shortened]... s we
make, the events we live through and we tend to look at the world around us due them
all.

I agree with you [kinda] and your metaphor of putting on glasses to see the world.


Where we disagree is in what those glasses are.

You are claiming that for atheists/myself those glasses are [or include] atheism as part of what
defines and shapes what and how we see the world.

What I/we are trying to say is that this is not true.

Atheism has no part of the glasses I/we wear, it is one of the things we see through the glasses
we do wear.